Obedience Instructors Going Too Far!

[kiesha09]

Geez sounds exactly like what happened to me! My dog did a runner during agility and after his zoomie time ran up to the intructor who proceeded to pick him up by his scruff (small dog) and scream 'NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO' in his face. Poor little man has never been yelled at by me let along some wierdo stranger. It was just so lucky that it was my boy who is very resilient, outgoing and confident so no lasting effects. Had it been my girl who has scardy cat issues with strangers that would be a whole new story, it could have created a whole new problem with strangers.

This instructor didn't get away with it lightly though. I made it VERY clear that she had no right to discipline my dog in any way and to never do it again. Funnily enough, I don't think she likes me much anymore and I'm fairly sure all the other instructors know about it too but I really don't care.

Miss Squish your story is absolutely disgraceful, but unfortunately its one I think we hear about all too often around here (SA)!

;) WTF is wrong with some instructors at obedience clubs......

Just because a dog does a runner during recalls does not mean its ok for the instructor to lift the dog up by the scruff of the neck sometimes off the ground while shaking it & screaming NO in its face ;) I have seen this done quite a few times now.

I have also attended another club where the instructor deceided to do food refusal, a new exercise for us. While my dog was sitting nicely on my left hand side the instructor waved food around in front of his face & as my dog stretched his neck out to sniff the food he copped a huge slap in the face which was heard by the whole class.

The instructor then laughed, then said he shouldnt have done that to a Rotty.

Years ago I also had another instructor "check" my 55kg Rotty so hard that he was off the ground. His check chain broke then some how rejoined so it was so tight my dog was gasping for breath. No one could get the chain off so someone had to race home to get bolt cutters while my boy could have died.

Ruger could have been a great obedience dog but due to some instructors he was too nervous to let a judge approach him for stand for exam & would shy away every time ;)

I have been a member of obedience clubs for 19 years & cant believe this happens & not just at the one club ;) No one but me seems to think this is wrong and are shocked to see it. Who is there to report it to when the clubs are so clicky??

[bedazzledx2]

This sort of behaviour from a so called instructor is discraceful ;) I would be reporting each and every occasion to the club president and if nothing were done about the methods I would also be reporting it to the State canine control. It sets training back 20 years and its very bad publicity for dog training. Needless to say I would also be voting with my feet!!! Better to train on your own than have your dog bullied in the name of a sport.

Geez sounds exactly like what happened to me! My dog did a runner during agility and after his zoomie time ran up to the intructor who proceeded to pick him up by his scruff (small dog) and scream 'NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO' in his face. Poor little man has never been yelled at by me let along some wierdo stranger. It was just so lucky that it was my boy who is very resilient, outgoing and confident so no lasting effects. Had it been my girl who has scardy cat issues with strangers that would be a whole new story, it could have created a whole new problem with strangers.

This instructor didn't get away with it lightly though. I made it VERY clear that she had no right to discipline my dog in any way and to never do it again. Funnily enough, I don't think she likes me much anymore and I'm fairly sure all the other instructors know about it too but I really don't care.

Miss Squish your story is absolutely disgraceful, but unfortunately its one I think we hear about all too often around here (SA)!

;) WTF is wrong with some instructors at obedience clubs......

Just because a dog does a runner during recalls does not mean its ok for the instructor to lift the dog up by the scruff of the neck sometimes off the ground while shaking it & screaming NO in its face ;) I have seen this done quite a few times now.

I have also attended another club where the instructor deceided to do food refusal, a new exercise for us. While my dog was sitting nicely on my left hand side the instructor waved food around in front of his face & as my dog stretched his neck out to sniff the food he copped a huge slap in the face which was heard by the whole class.

The instructor then laughed, then said he shouldnt have done that to a Rotty.

Years ago I also had another instructor "check" my 55kg Rotty so hard that he was off the ground. His check chain broke then some how rejoined so it was so tight my dog was gasping for breath. No one could get the chain off so someone had to race home to get bolt cutters while my boy could have died.

Ruger could have been a great obedience dog but due to some instructors he was too nervous to let a judge approach him for stand for exam & would shy away every time ;)

I have been a member of obedience clubs for 19 years & cant believe this happens & not just at the one club No one but me seems to think this is wrong and are shocked to see it. Who is there to report it to when the clubs are so clicky??

[Mas1981]

I would be shocked if someone did anything like this to my dog, I would go crazy if someone shook him etc. People who behave like that shouldnt be instructors.

[kiesha09]

Absolutely right bedazzled and thats why I became unmotivated to go towards the end of last year. I can imagine the club presidents not understanding what is wrong with that kind of action either ;)

Also in terms of training on your own, as a relative newbie to agility it would be nice to be able to go to a club and get actual positive 'instruction,' from your instructors and actually learn something. It's a very hard slog trying to learn it on your own. Yes there are books and DVDs but for those of us out these just learning its hard to even know where to start. So I can completely understand why people keep going back.

This sort of behaviour from a so called instructor is discraceful ;) I would be reporting each and every occasion to the club president and if nothing were done about the methods I would also be reporting it to the State canine control. It sets training back 20 years and its very bad publicity for dog training. Needless to say I would also be voting with my feet!!! Better to train on your own than have your dog bullied in the name of a sport.

Geez sounds exactly like what happened to me! My dog did a runner during agility and after his zoomie time ran up to the intructor who proceeded to pick him up by his scruff (small dog) and scream 'NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO' in his face. Poor little man has never been yelled at by me let along some wierdo stranger. It was just so lucky that it was my boy who is very resilient, outgoing and confident so no lasting effects. Had it been my girl who has scardy cat issues with strangers that would be a whole new story, it could have created a whole new problem with strangers.

This instructor didn't get away with it lightly though. I made it VERY clear that she had no right to discipline my dog in any way and to never do it again. Funnily enough, I don't think she likes me much anymore and I'm fairly sure all the other instructors know about it too but I really don't care.

Miss Squish your story is absolutely disgraceful, but unfortunately its one I think we hear about all too often around here (SA)!

;) WTF is wrong with some instructors at obedience clubs......

Just because a dog does a runner during recalls does not mean its ok for the instructor to lift the dog up by the scruff of the neck sometimes off the ground while shaking it & screaming NO in its face ;) I have seen this done quite a few times now.

I have also attended another club where the instructor deceided to do food refusal, a new exercise for us. While my dog was sitting nicely on my left hand side the instructor waved food around in front of his face & as my dog stretched his neck out to sniff the food he copped a huge slap in the face which was heard by the whole class.

The instructor then laughed, then said he shouldnt have done that to a Rotty.

Years ago I also had another instructor "check" my 55kg Rotty so hard that he was off the ground. His check chain broke then some how rejoined so it was so tight my dog was gasping for breath. No one could get the chain off so someone had to race home to get bolt cutters while my boy could have died.

Ruger could have been a great obedience dog but due to some instructors he was too nervous to let a judge approach him for stand for exam & would shy away every time

I have been a member of obedience clubs for 19 years & cant believe this happens & not just at the one club No one but me seems to think this is wrong and are shocked to see it. Who is there to report it to when the clubs are so clicky??

[Guest Willow]

Charlie doesn't listen to any of the instructors in my club. He likes them and all but he won't listen to any one of them. I have no idea why, would you guys have an idea why he won't? (he has done this since puppy school and when my friend was practising some dog training on him, he gave her the same look and refuse to do anything, but just watch me)

He gives them the 'You're not my mummy' look, and then will remain focus totally on me. He doesn't even listen to them... but none of the instructors yank the leash or yell at him. They simply just laugh, make a comment about being Mama's boy and then return him to me.

Could be a few things....he might feel a bit stressed, or just have no bond with the person, so no desire to work with them. If this happens in any of my classes, I just laugh it off & explain why the dog has done it....ususally if I'm having trouble getting a dog to listen to me, I'll just address the class with "so, you know how I explained that I'm a professional trainer & do this for a living?..... " it normally gets a laugh out of the class, and 9 times out of 10 the dog does it perfectly for the owner anyway.

If I have a dog in class that just cannot focus at all, even with the owner, I explain that there could be a number of things going on causing the dog to not be interested, and just ask the owner to watch & understand the exercises so they can practice at home to start with where the dog feels comfortable.

I have no problem letting trainers I trust handle my dogs. No trainer should take your dog without making you comfortable with what they will do first. A trainer should explain their methods to you before taking your dog. I would never, ever hand my dog over to someone who I didn't know or wasn't comfortable with.

I try to do this.....explain & demo with my "invisible dog" and then ask if I can borrow a dog, but I ALWAYS say "may I use your dog to semo with??? Is it ok if I take the lead off you?" I only pick dogs that I think will be totally comfortable with it.....I'm so horrified by some of the stories I have read in this thread!

[Chiwogabull*]

:D It is soo very sad that so little is done to name and shame these idiots!

How is an inexperienced new puppy owner expected to know the difference and until they do it will continue.

I take Quatro to my obedience club but will not let him be handled by anyone else, and I train using the clicker not by force.

[newfsie]

Well it doesn't happen where I go........If anything the owner gets told to be softer. it hasn't always been like this, but it is great now. And we love going. My Annabelle is very sensitive and yelling would never do. And telling a dog off after it has returned, well there goes the future recalls for sure. I would turn around and leave if it happened.

Dog training should be fun and educational.

[Zug Zug]

Horrible. I would never train with that instructor again. They have no right to handle your dog that way - none at all.

You always have the choice who you train with. I wouldn't stick with anyone whose methods are rough. No point - I wouldn't take their training advice anyway!

Rather than naming and shaming (something I suspect people won't be willing to do) perhaps we can take a more positive approach and name some great instructors in each state?

We could start a thread... I'd be happy to start off with some great recommendations of great, positive instructors in Adelaide.

Re handling other people's dogs - I do instructing a little these days and I do sometimes demonstrate with other people's dogs. Recently I handled 8 learner dogs in a row for a long-lead recall. I held their dogs while their handlers walked to the end of the lead, then called their dogs to them - and I got FLEAS!!!! :cool:

[Longcoat]

It sounds like William Koehler is back from the dead. I would be putting in complaints with the clubs involved.

Apart from Koehler's behavioral correction processes which were blatently stupid, I have always thought his leash training methods were not too bad when following his system from the beginning. I have seen the result of many dogs trained in Koehler methods with magical off leash obedience :D

Reliability off lead should always be the most significant criterion when evaluating and comparing training methods

Straight out of Koehlers book Longcoat :cool:

I remember back in the 70's Jeff, leashing a dog was a statement that said "I am not a good dog trainer". Being able to throw your leash away was an admirable mark of competence in those days before laws made leashing compulsory. It would be interesting to see today going back to the no leash competency perception of yesterday, how modern training methods measure up against the Koehler methods for ultimate off leash reliability???. We can train some super off leash routines, but can we still park our dog outside the pub in the main street of town on a Friday night for a couple of hours without a leash, and the dog still be sitting in the same place when we come out after commanding a stay???.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Longcoat

[bedazzledx2]

Longcoat, back in the 70's it would be a fair bet you could leave your dog outside a pub and no harm would come to it....I don't care to bet on that now days!!!!! Why do you think positive training doesn't make for reliable behaviour? Speaking for myself, my positively trained dogs are very reliable and we have happy compliance to any taught and positively proofed command. Remember positive is not permissive I use stuff that's taught for the trial ring in everyday life all the time and don't see why it shouldn't be reliable.

It sounds like William Koehler is back from the dead. I would be putting in complaints with the clubs involved.

Apart from Koehler's behavioral correction processes which were blatently stupid, I have always thought his leash training methods were not too bad when following his system from the beginning. I have seen the result of many dogs trained in Koehler methods with magical off leash obedience

Reliability off lead should always be the most significant criterion when evaluating and comparing training methods

Straight out of Koehlers book Longcoat

I remember back in the 70's Jeff, leashing a dog was a statement that said "I am not a good dog trainer". Being able to throw your leash away was an admirable mark of competence in those days before laws made leashing compulsory. It would be interesting to see today going back to the no leash competency perception of yesterday, how modern training methods measure up against the Koehler methods for ultimate off leash reliability???. We can train some super off leash routines, but can we still park our dog outside the pub in the main street of town on a Friday night for a couple of hours without a leash, and the dog still be sitting in the same place when we come out after commanding a stay???.

[RallyValley]

I have never had these issues at obidience class. I have had a bad expirience with someone scaring Lincoln then making it worse by crowing him until he got really anxious and growled (this is a 12 week old puppy at the time). I then had this person tell me that Lincoln should be 'sent back' or 'locked away'.

They then badmouthed Lincoln to people including one I know who told me about it.

[Tiggy]

I have never had these issues at obidience class. I have had a bad expirience with someone scaring Lincoln then making it worse by crowing him until he got really anxious and growled (this is a 12 week old puppy at the time). I then had this person tell me that Lincoln should be 'sent back' or 'locked away'.

They then badmouthed Lincoln to people including one I know who told me about it.

That's horrible valleyCBR .

[Tilly]

I have never had these issues at obidience class. I have had a bad expirience with someone scaring Lincoln then making it worse by crowing him until he got really anxious and growled (this is a 12 week old puppy at the time). I then had this person tell me that Lincoln should be 'sent back' or 'locked away'.

They then badmouthed Lincoln to people including one I know who told me about it.

I took my youngest to puppy pre-school for socialisation around other dogs. From day one he was considered a problem as he just doesn't sit still - he just wanted to play and when I had him sitting still he was very vocal. One night I had him focusing on me (because he was over excited about the other puppies) and the instructor came up behind him giving him a start which caused him to turn and bark at her. I asked him to sit and then praised him ... she thought I should have corrected him for barking at her instead of telling him he was a good boy

Another night he went off at some young men who were acting suspect around some car in the carpark beside us. I praised him and rewarded for his watching and alerting ... instructor thought I should have been correcting this sort of behaviour.

She had been told he was going to be a security dog so I wasn't going to correct him for barking at someone.

Needless to say we failed puppy pre-school and didn't get an attendance certificate like the other puppies.

[Longcoat]

'bedazzledx2' date='13th Mar 2010 - 03:04 PM' post='4391174']

Longcoat, back in the 70's it would be a fair bet you could leave your dog outside a pub and no harm would come to it....I don't care to bet on that now days!!!!! Why do you think positive training doesn't make for reliable behaviour? Speaking for myself, my positively trained dogs are very reliable and we have happy compliance to any taught and positively proofed command. Remember positive is not permissive I use stuff that's taught for the trial ring in everyday life all the time and don't see why it shouldn't be reliable.

Off leash reliability other than trial type obedience is not tested on a daily basis as it used to be years ago before the multitude of dog laws were put into place. People used to walk to the shops more etc, as transport and cars were not that plentiful and the family pet would regularly accompany people in their daily routines tagging along without leashes. Koehler methods were adopted by many trainers and clubs in those days which worked towards unleashed obedience and the reliablity of the trained dogs was fantastic. Things are far different now and the training methods are not tested the way they used to be in general daily unleashed obedience to base a comparison really. I will never forget a black Labrador that used to be sent to the primary school a few streets away to pick up the kids in the afternoon

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

or my dog who used to be given a basket and a note in the basket then sent down to the shops to get bread and milk...........and never once did he go for a ong walk nor ever eat or loose the basket contents.

[Staff'n'Toller]

'bedazzledx2' date='13th Mar 2010 - 03:04 PM' post='4391174']

Longcoat, back in the 70's it would be a fair bet you could leave your dog outside a pub and no harm would come to it....I don't care to bet on that now days!!!!! Why do you think positive training doesn't make for reliable behaviour? Speaking for myself, my positively trained dogs are very reliable and we have happy compliance to any taught and positively proofed command. Remember positive is not permissive I use stuff that's taught for the trial ring in everyday life all the time and don't see why it shouldn't be reliable.

Off leash reliability other than trial type obedience is not tested on a daily basis as it used to be years ago before the multitude of dog laws were put into place. People used to walk to the shops more etc, as transport and cars were not that plentiful and the family pet would regularly accompany people in their daily routines tagging along without leashes. Koehler methods were adopted by many trainers and clubs in those days which worked towards unleashed obedience and the reliablity of the trained dogs was fantastic. Things are far different now and the training methods are not tested the way they used to be in general daily unleashed obedience to base a comparison really. I will never forget a black Labrador that used to be sent to the primary school a few streets away to pick up the kids in the afternoon

20 years ago dogs involved in motor vehicle accidents were a common thing. My boss has been a Vet for 30 years and 20 years ago dogs HBC were his bread and butter money, they were brought in every single day. Pinning and plating fractured legs were done every week. There were many dogs off lead for sure, in the past, but their obedience was tested by their ability to stay off the road and I dare say a large percentage of them did not pass the test.

Edited March 13, 2010 by Staff'n'Toller

[Longcoat]

'bedazzledx2' date='13th Mar 2010 - 03:04 PM' post='4391174']

Longcoat, back in the 70's it would be a fair bet you could leave your dog outside a pub and no harm would come to it....I don't care to bet on that now days!!!!! Why do you think positive training doesn't make for reliable behaviour? Speaking for myself, my positively trained dogs are very reliable and we have happy compliance to any taught and positively proofed command. Remember positive is not permissive I use stuff that's taught for the trial ring in everyday life all the time and don't see why it shouldn't be reliable.

Off leash reliability other than trial type obedience is not tested on a daily basis as it used to be years ago before the multitude of dog laws were put into place. People used to walk to the shops more etc, as transport and cars were not that plentiful and the family pet would regularly accompany people in their daily routines tagging along without leashes. Koehler methods were adopted by many trainers and clubs in those days which worked towards unleashed obedience and the reliablity of the trained dogs was fantastic. Things are far different now and the training methods are not tested the way they used to be in general daily unleashed obedience to base a comparison really. I will never forget a black Labrador that used to be sent to the primary school a few streets away to pick up the kids in the afternoon

20 years ago dogs involved in motor vehicle accidents were a common thing. My boss has been a Vet for 30 years and 20 years ago dogs HBC were his bread and butter money, they were brought in every single day. Pinning and plating fractured legs were done every week. There were many dogs off lead for sure, in the past, but their obedience was tested by their ability to stay off the road and I dare say a large percentage of them did not pass the test.

That's the reason some people trained their dogs in the no leash era's of the past and voice control was the ultimate back then and is what the good trainers worked at.

[Guest Willow]

Needless to say we failed puppy pre-school and didn't get an attendance certificate like the other puppies.

What a horrid puppy preschool!! NOBODY should be failed at puppy school...these are babies!!! They aren't supposed to be perfect....It's like grading a three year old kids finger painting & then making them stay back a year!!! There's always something positive to be noted about a puppy or owners achievements, even in the most challenging pups.

An attendance certificate is just that....to show you attended, not how "good" or "bad" you were....you should have got one like everyone else

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Needless to say we failed puppy pre-school and didn't get an attendance certificate like the other puppies.

What a horrid puppy preschool!! NOBODY should be failed at puppy school...these are babies!!! They aren't supposed to be perfect....It's like grading a three year old kids finger painting & then making them stay back a year!!! There's always something positive to be noted about a puppy or owners achievements, even in the most challenging pups.

An attendance certificate is just that....to show you attended, not how "good" or "bad" you were....you should have got one like everyone else

i agree but my puppy failed a positive training puppy course basically cause the trainer didnt know how to deal with a dog that was not food driven and was excitable.

it really put me off positive training and i still have a negative view of it because of this trainer

[Guest Willow]

Needless to say we failed puppy pre-school and didn't get an attendance certificate like the other puppies.

What a horrid puppy preschool!! NOBODY should be failed at puppy school...these are babies!!! They aren't supposed to be perfect....It's like grading a three year old kids finger painting & then making them stay back a year!!! There's always something positive to be noted about a puppy or owners achievements, even in the most challenging pups.

An attendance certificate is just that....to show you attended, not how "good" or "bad" you were....you should have got one like everyone else

i agree but my puppy failed a positive training puppy course basically cause the trainer didnt know how to deal with a dog that was not food driven and was excitable.

it really put me off positive training and i still have a negative view of it because of this trainer

That's such a shame...I'm sorry you had such a bad experience I use reward based training wiht puppies, and even with the "excitable" puppies, once we cracked what the motivation was for these babies, they came on in leaps & bounds. For some of them, play is the reward.....seems this instructor lacked both dog & people skills