Obedience Instructors Going Too Far!

[gsdog2]

Ms Faye you may not realise this but you are in the Training/Obedience/Dog Sport forum of DOL so you will find people will want to discuss "training methods" here

[huski]

Personally I cannot see any reason why you would catch a dog who has run off and correct it once you caught it, or why a dog notorious for having no recall is allowed off leash in the first place.

Huski, I am not 100% sure which clud is being referred to here but I can say it is unfortunately not a one off. I once visited a club down that side of town (I suspect the same club but could be wrong).

At the invitation of a committee member I knew (and reason I was visiting) I joined in a class appropriate to the level of my dog. My dog that they had never met... I excused myself from class after being told I needed to grab my dog by the scruff and lift and shake her back into a sit when she laid down in a sit stay - reason she laid down was stress due to the person next to us doing the same to their dog. I was told I needed to do this lift and shake 3 times for it to be effective. Thank god they didnt decide to try and show me or they would not have known what hit them!

I then sat at the side and watched. And saw a dog do a recall and veer off part way back to the handler at which point people came charging out shouting at the dog and waving things. causing it to run off the opposite direction where another person was luckily able to get it befroe it reached the road. When I spoke to the person I knew at the club about this I was told the dog does that every week. I was very disappointed and not at all comfortable with what I had witnessed.

This was quite a few years ago now and I would have hoped with information on training methods being more widely available that things at clubs would have changed, sadly it seems not. I took a long break from training at clubs and that was in part due to frustration at things I saw - I had volunteered, I had instrcuted, I had been on committees but felt i was hitting a wall and you can only do it so long before you wear out (or get concussion, lol) so at that point I stepped down. Now I go along and use clubs for training but pretty mich do my own thing.

Gosh that's sad No wonder people get put off club training.

[Kelpie-i]

Ms Faye seems to me like you might be a committee member or trainer at the said club Your posts reek of it.

People will tell it like they see it and if someone sees the action as 'abuse', then in that person's eyes it is. Whatever the instructor did to that dog for non-recall is totally unacceptable for 2 different reasons, firstly that correction for non-recall only makes the dog run away faster next time, and secondly it's not the instructor's business to be correcting someone else's dog....ETA unless that person has given the instructor permission to do so.

Edited March 15, 2010 by Kelpie-i

[Gogee]

What I saw was not dog lifted off the ground but sitting dog lifted enough so front feet were up off the ground, If you get that?

Looks like I have no choice but to never go to a club in Adelaide again, & do nothing as it seems word will get around that I lie & im a troublemaker.

Hey Miss Squish there are other lovely clubs out there in Adelaide that don't use aversives, and still get great results. If you're not happy with where you are currently, it might not be worth staying there and trying to change things or putting in a complaint?

You pay money to attend, and deserve to be in an environment that you feel comfortable in so perhaps try somewhere else?

[Ms Faye]

Ms Faye you may not realise this but you are in the Training/Obedience/Dog Sport forum of DOL so you will find people will want to discuss "training methods" here

Don't get snippy. Read most of the posts not all but the majority is outrage at the incident posted.

Ive seen very little discussion regarding training methods. Posts of other horror stories and suport for false reporting doesn't classify as discussion on training methods.

[gsdog2]

I have to agree with huski and I'm wondering why this question hasn't been answered Ms Faye

I always thought the first rule for an off lead recall was if you don't have a reliable recall the dog should not be let off the lead.

Not quite sure what you mean by "snippy" , but above was my last post, and there are certainly others questioning the "training technique" of the club being discussed.

[Erny]

Ive seen very little discussion regarding training methods.

With the 'method' for the "food refusal" component of training, where the instructor slaps the dog on the face/muzzle if it reaches for the food that is offered, how do you ensure that the dog is pairing that punishment with the fact that it reached for the food, and not pairing it with the fact that a 'stranger' approached it?

[Ms Faye]

Ms Faye seems to me like you might be a committee member or trainer at the said club Your posts reek of it.

People will tell it like they see it and if someone sees the action as 'abuse', then in that person's eyes it is. Whatever the instructor did to that dog for non-recall is totally unacceptable for 2 different reasons, firstly that correction for non-recall only makes the dog run away faster next time, and secondly it's not the instructor's business to be correcting someone else's dog....ETA unless that person has given the instructor permission to do so.

Try keeping up, I said I was an instructor can't for the life of me see how that makes a difference. If someone lies on an open forum are you saying an instructor or committee person doesn't have the right to speak out. So let me get this straight no one else on this forum is a trainer or committee person. Sorry I didn't realise this forum was for handlers only.

[megan_]

Try keeping up, I said I was an instructor can't for the life of me see how that makes a difference. If someone lies on an open forum are you saying an instructor or committee person doesn't have the right to speak out. So let me get this straight no one else on this forum is a trainer or committee person. Sorry I didn't realise this forum was for handlers only.

Miss Squish didn't name the club at all so the majority of us here have no idea what club you are talking about, regardless of whether it is lies or the truth!

You have launched a rather personal attack on her. If I was in her shoes, I wouldn't set foot at that club again. I posted some negative things about a VCA club I once attended (without naming the club). Some instructors figured out which club I was on about, posted a different point-of-view and it never got so snippy.

OT - but there seems to be a bit of "only positive methods are okay" creeping into the thread. You can go to a club that uses "punishment" and never harm your dog. It is all about what is appropriate for your dog.

And if a dog is breaking every week, it needs to go back on the leash.

[Kelpie-i]

Like you Ms Faye...I read most of the posts.....not all

And for a newbie to this forum who is trying to defend the organisation you are affiliated with, you most certainly are very defensive, quite rude and extremely unprofessional in your approach.

If someone lies on an open forum are you saying an instructor or committee person doesn't have the right to speak out

There are ways of doing this and belittling a person on a public forum is not the way...it comes accross as aggressive and again, unprofessional.

[Erny]

Ive seen very little discussion regarding training methods.

With the 'method' for the "food refusal" component of training, where the instructor slaps the dog on the face/muzzle if it reaches for the food that is offered, how do you ensure that the dog is pairing that punishment with the fact that it reached for the food, and not pairing it with the fact that a 'stranger' approached it?

Ms Faye - is this not a 'method' used at the Club in question?

If it is, I'm still puzzled at the reasoning behind the creation of the 'method'. Do you agree with it?

[huski]

Ms Faye you may not realise this but you are in the Training/Obedience/Dog Sport forum of DOL so you will find people will want to discuss "training methods" here

Don't get snippy. Read most of the posts not all but the majority is outrage at the incident posted.

Ive seen very little discussion regarding training methods. Posts of other horror stories and suport for false reporting doesn't classify as discussion on training methods.

Well seeing as you train at the club the OP is referring to, the ones whose methods are being bought into question, I don't see why you can't answer my questions regarding whether or not punishing a dog AFTER it's been caught is effective and WHY the dog was off leash in the first place when it is notorious (in your words) for unreliable off leash.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Ms Faye seems to me like you might be a committee member or trainer at the said club Your posts reek of it.

People will tell it like they see it and if someone sees the action as 'abuse', then in that person's eyes it is. Whatever the instructor did to that dog for non-recall is totally unacceptable for 2 different reasons, firstly that correction for non-recall only makes the dog run away faster next time, and secondly it's not the instructor's business to be correcting someone else's dog....ETA unless that person has given the instructor permission to do so.

Try keeping up, I said I was an instructor can't for the life of me see how that makes a difference. If someone lies on an open forum are you saying an instructor or committee person doesn't have the right to speak out. So let me get this straight no one else on this forum is a trainer or committee person. Sorry I didn't realise this forum was for handlers only.

wow you are starting to get very snippy and rude to people who have been here for some time.

i think you may need to rethink your approach to this subject because you may not win over the hearts and minds of forum members with your current tone.

it seems that it is important for you to get your point accross so the above is simply trying to assist.

however, my observation is that you have not once said that this may warrant investigation which makes it look like it is a closed shop where complaints are not listened to.

now i find that sad ;)

edited to say i really want to know what club this is because i want to make sure i never go near it. ms faye you are behaving in a very unprofessional way and having personal attacks at ms squish makes it look like she is right and you are wrong. not once has she attacked you personally, in fact she has shown remarkable restraint

Edited March 15, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[tazmadman]

It happened tonight with a young German Shepherd bitch, she took off running around having fun & when she was caught she copped it, grabbed by the scruff lifted up & NO screamed at her A few of the instructors in the higher grades do it & everyone seems to accept it. They club is so clicky I know nothing would be done about it if I put in a complaint.

this is the post which has got me very angry im not interested in her first post or anything else she has to say or any of the wanna be experts here who all seem to jump on the band wagon when they don’t know the facts and are not looking at what is posted

i think i have heard enough of this rubbish ! the person starting the thread has had problems with instructors at that club and has done for a while the club has dedicated many hours of one on one help for her and has never pushed her away as for being clicky what rubbish we welcome anyone into that club and if she regularly sits on the side lines not joining in conversations we cant grab her hand and help you have to help yourself i have been a active member at that club for many years and we very rarely get complaints (every club will have some unhappy members for one reason or another)

all the instructors that know her are reading this but have no intension of getting into a childish argument over training methods but are very disappointed that she has said this

the question is not of training methods and yes we train to a very high standard and our instructors do a very good job but of CRULETY as the allegation has been made im not interested in what everyone here thinks the best way to train a dog is im concerned that in the post she made above is a LIE and by here own admission in pms to another member she sated it may not have exactly happed as was posted by her

i can tell you now the instructor concerned is a very highly regarded senior instructor in our club and respected in the obedience community in the state and who would NEVER do that and if he caught someone doing it would be asked to leave

he is furious and is considering taking this further to clear his name

as for being clicky and banding together of course we will band together when a lie has been told

people should only comment about the situation if they were there on the night and yes i was and i will be speaking to the class to get statutory declarations of what happened on the night

Everyone here can sit at there keyboard and type what they want i will not respond to dumb questions

but you must realise when a statement like that is made in a public forum and it is proven to be untrue and the post writer has named the club in private mails to people canning us and i am informed the post was here by another club that is horrified that it was put on here we will not sit back and let it happen

this will be taken up at the next committee meeting i can assure you and from what i here legal action may result unless a apology for that post is not forth coming we are not interested in the first post as it doesn’t concern us

@Jacks Buddy i dont think that poster is getting snippy and rude it doesnt matter how long you have been here posts here dont give you priority but they have a right to state when a lie has been told

and when as i said before if you wernt there you dont know the facts so you dont have a right to comment

as for people complaing about msfayes attitude remember she was in that class and saw it all you lot were not

and if i was her i would be very angy she has a right to dfent what happened in that class when there are lies told

Edited March 16, 2010 by tazmadman

[huski]

Tazmadman, I have heard privately from a couple of people who were there on the night and witnessed what happened – apparently the dog did a runner, was caught and when bought back to the class the instructor grabbed it, held it upwards by it’s check chain, pushed it towards the ground and shouted NO repeatedly in its face.

I can’t possibly see how talking about training methods is not relevant, when the entire thread’s topic is about inappropriate methods being used at club training.

As an instructor at the club, either you think it is appropriate to reprimand a dog who has run off, AFTER it’s been caught and returned to class, or you don’t. Another instructor at this club has already said this dog is notorious for being unreliable off leash, yet it has been allowed to work off leash – why?

At the end of the day, Miss Squish has seen something that has made her uncomfortable and if you are really concerned about your club’s reputation, you should approach her to get her side of the story and reach a resolution… not come on here, ganging up on her and threatening her. Even if it was totally made up (which is unlikely given that there are other people there who witnessed it) you are only making yourself look unprofessional by the way you are behaving on the forum.

If I were you, I would be taking the allegations against the trainer who treated the dog in this way very seriously instead of calling Miss Squish and the others who witnessed what happened liars.

[Staranais]

however, my observation is that you have not once said that this may warrant investigation which makes it look like it is a closed shop where complaints are not listened to.

now i find that sad

Me too. If I were in the area I too would be prompted to investigate further so I could avoid attending that club, not because of the OP's story, but simply because of the attitude shown by the trainers who have posted so far.

[tazmadman]

you heard privatly you wernt there so you are posting something that do dont know is true

what crap you wernt there so dont give a opinion

if anyone was there on the night and saw it come to the office on wed night if you didnt see it with your own eyes dont give your opinion

then they say oh i am hostile i wonder why as i said if you didnt see it im not interested if you were there send me a pm and ill tell you how to contact me to discuss it

Edited March 16, 2010 by tazmadman

[tazmadman]

however, my observation is that you have not once said that this may warrant investigation which makes it look like it is a closed shop where complaints are not listened to.

now i find that sad

Me too. If I were in the area I too would be prompted to investigate further so I could avoid attending that club, not because of the OP's story, but simply because of the attitude shown by the trainers who have posted so far.

have no fear it will be investigated but remember there are always 2 sides to the story

and we do have a right of reply and i am not surprised the way posts have been put up you will notice 99% of the rubbish put up here are from people who wernt there and have no idear of what happened they are only going on a few posts from a disgruntled member who has admitted she may have exagerated what she said

im not waisting my time here arguing something that no one here has the full story and it is becoming a childish slinging match

[poodlefan]

people should only comment about the situation if they were there on the night and yes i was and i will be speaking to the class to get statutory declarations of what happened on the night

Perhaps some gentle questioning of individuals rather than asking people to give stat decs might be a good starting point? Tazmadman from what I gather you didn't see the alleged incident but you've come out swinging and branded a person a liar without seeking verification of the facts. Seems to me we may not be the only ones who don't have the full story yet.

I appreciate that no one likes to see their club or their actions publicly badmouthed but is it even remotely possible that a ordinary handler might be sufficiently intimidated by your club culture that they wouldn't report something like this. Happens quite easily in my experience.

Go in gently and just ask people one on one if they were present and if so, whether witnessed anything and whether they were concerned. No need for leading questions or talking of law suits before you know what you're dealing with. Witch hunts won't profit anyone.

Edited March 16, 2010 by poodlefan

[huski]

you may say what you want i would reccomend you come to the office on wed night to discuss it because its funny how we have been told quite a differant story from members on sunday who were in the class and if you SAW this why didnt you say something on the night ???????????????????????????? because there are 2 very differant stories

Huh? Are you referring to my post? I don't attend the club or even live in SA, I am just saying that people who witnessed it have messages me privately about the incident.

Would you mind responding to my questions regarding why the dog would be punished after being returned to the class and why it was off leash in the first place? So far not one instuctor from the club has been willing to answer. Honestly your behaviour on this forum would put me off attending the club regardless of if Miss Squish's account of the incident is accurate or not.

Edited March 16, 2010 by huski