I Am At My Wits End And Do Not Know What To Do

[huski]

As there are plenty of trainers who avoid Koehler type training methods on dogs that need it and never achieve reliable obedience from all the dog's they train either???. A good trainer should be able to determine the methods best suited to that particular dog's requirements.

Yes that's true that it's dependent on the dog, but there are trainers out there who have successfully trained high drive dogs to extreme reliability without full on Kohler style corrections.

[poodlefan]

Longcoat:

IMHO, if a training method works with a high drive powerful breed, it will work even better when adjusted to suit a smaller less driven breed using the same concept. Head halters, harnesses may work with some dogs to better manage the behavior, but to train the dog, some corrective action is needed and I totally support the advice that Nekhbet has provided above

Corrective action is NOT always necessary and will cause some lower drive dogs to totally shut down.

No one method will be successful for all dogs. You need a few tools in your tool box for this and most other training challenges.

Do you disagree that the concept Nekhbet suggested won't work in the OP's situation???. Personally I think it will with adjustment to suit the requirements as I mentioned. Naturally the corrective force would be differently applied to the OP's dogs than it would be from the same misbehaviour from a working line GSD or Belgian Malinios which a good trainer will easily determine the necessary level of correction required.

Given that I've not met the dogs and don't know the owner, I recommended reward based training rather than correction. It seems to be working.

The biggest issue I've seen with a lot of handlers is that their timing is off - they can't get the reward in the right place to show the dog what they want. If the issue is the handler's skill, rather than "disobedience", then why should the dog suffer for that?

I've seen "chronic pullers" walking on a loose lead very quickly once they understand that the loose lead profits them. I'm not "anti-aversive" but I don't think it needs to be the first tool you dust off, particularly with some hounds who will mentally pack up and go home if you apply them.

Try jerking a Whippet around on a lead - with some dogs, what you'll end up with is a dog that refuses to move at all.

[Longcoat]

As there are plenty of trainers who avoid Koehler type training methods on dogs that need it and never achieve reliable obedience from all the dog's they train either???. A good trainer should be able to determine the methods best suited to that particular dog's requirements.

Yes that's true that it's dependent on the dog, but there are trainers out there who have successfully trained high drive dogs to extreme reliability without full on Kohler style corrections.

Ivan Balabanov is a good example of a successful high drive dog trainer who uses minimal corrections, but he will and does use a correction in certain applications and conditions. I am more referring to trainers who general act on a principal law that they will NEVER apply a correction and that everything must be done on purely positive methods. These trainers tend to scoot around the behavioral issue looking for equipment to use, head collars, harnesses etc, not because the equipment is superior or an effective training tool, but to uphold their belief that a correction should never be applied in any circumstances. I don't see that concept being the essence of a good trainer, and in the process of correction avoidance leaves dog owners trying to implement these methods as the OP has experienced, "at their wits end" with a dog that is showing no signs of behaviour improvement.

With Koehler though Huski researching his methods, rarely would anyone say that his methods didn't train the dog, infact in competition, the Koehler trained dogs would generally win, but the downfall in excessive use of Koehler methods was the dog's flatness and willingness to comply. The Koehler trained dogs could tend to lack the prancing feet that other methods extracted. The Koehler dogs performed a faultless routine on the basis of avoiding punishment where the other's performed the routine because they enjoyed it, but often with not quite the Koehler precision. Some of the Koehler methods have been blown way out of proportion as to their aversive nature, where in fact some of the Koehler methods in leash control are very good with the same concepts used successfully today.

[Longcoat]

Longcoat:

IMHO, if a training method works with a high drive powerful breed, it will work even better when adjusted to suit a smaller less driven breed using the same concept. Head halters, harnesses may work with some dogs to better manage the behavior, but to train the dog, some corrective action is needed and I totally support the advice that Nekhbet has provided above

Corrective action is NOT always necessary and will cause some lower drive dogs to totally shut down.

No one method will be successful for all dogs. You need a few tools in your tool box for this and most other training challenges.

Do you disagree that the concept Nekhbet suggested won't work in the OP's situation???. Personally I think it will with adjustment to suit the requirements as I mentioned. Naturally the corrective force would be differently applied to the OP's dogs than it would be from the same misbehaviour from a working line GSD or Belgian Malinios which a good trainer will easily determine the necessary level of correction required.

Given that I've not met the dogs and don't know the owner, I recommended reward based training rather than correction. It seems to be working.

The biggest issue I've seen with a lot of handlers is that their timing is off - they can't get the reward in the right place to show the dog what they want. If the issue is the handler's skill, rather than "disobedience", then why should the dog suffer for that?

I've seen "chronic pullers" walking on a loose lead very quickly once they understand that the loose lead profits them. I'm not "anti-aversive" but I don't think it needs to be the first tool you dust off, particularly with some hounds who will mentally pack up and go home if you apply them.

Try jerking a Whippet around on a lead - with some dogs, what you'll end up with is a dog that refuses to move at all.

Timing is generally the issue be it a correction or reward that people get wrong.........I agree

[Prydenjoy]

Try jerking a Whippet around on a lead - with some dogs, what you'll end up with is a dog that refuses to move at all.

We had our family poodle on a check chain when we started training her, she completely shut down and to this day is unwilling to do anything.

I'd rather have poor timing on a reward than a punishment. I see people jerking their dogs around for no reason all of the time, the dog doesn't understand why they are constantly being punished. Very sad to see :D

[Longcoat]

Try jerking a Whippet around on a lead - with some dogs, what you'll end up with is a dog that refuses to move at all.

We had our family poodle on a check chain when we started training her, she completely shut down and to this day is unwilling to do anything.

I'd rather have poor timing on a reward than a punishment. I see people jerking their dogs around for no reason all of the time, the dog doesn't understand why they are constantly being punished. Very sad to see :D

That's not the fault of the training method, but the fault of the handlers using a method that they don't understand how to use properly.

[Prydenjoy]

Yeah exactly, how many people can actually use it properly? The classes we run we spend a great deal more time trying to get people to use check chains effectively than offering rewards effectively, for the simple reason that when people don't use a check chain effectively the dog is suffering.

[poodlefan]

Try jerking a Whippet around on a lead - with some dogs, what you'll end up with is a dog that refuses to move at all.

We had our family poodle on a check chain when we started training her, she completely shut down and to this day is unwilling to do anything.

I'd rather have poor timing on a reward than a punishment. I see people jerking their dogs around for no reason all of the time, the dog doesn't understand why they are constantly being punished. Very sad to see

That's not the fault of the training method, but the fault of the handlers using a method that they don't understand how to use properly.

Which is why many clubs prefer reward based training for pet handlers. The consequences of not getting it right aren't as severe for the dog.

There's a very good reason why you're starting to see different kinds of breeds go well in trialling.. there's a wider range of training methods out there and some suit some breeds/dogs/handlers better than others.