Ear-gluing - A Different Question Than Stitchs

[Trisven13]

As someone whose breed doesn't need ear-gluing it is something I find really interesting. I'm NOT trying to shit-stir here - just to understand something I don't understand so please take it in the spirit it is meant - a quest for knowledge.

I don't doubt that because it is not an issue for my breed I find it almost akin to cheating. I figure as it is so widely done it isn't but how is it different to other things that are frowned upon like fake testicles, or dental work etc? If the dog has correct ear set won't the ears just go right? Why don't they? And if they don't why is it so important in the standard when it is often only obtained by taping the ear? I don't understand why a standard would call for a style of ear that is often only obtained by taping OR should fewer examples be shown, only those whose ears do it naturally?

A personal example - Grover's bite is fine BUT he is missing a tooth which means he can't be shown, particularly under FCI judges. How is taping an ear to make it sit right any different to giving him a false tooth (if that is even possible)?

[persephone]

Trisven....

I have been wondering the same things?

It doesn't sit comfortably with me either...

So, if I saw a dog from whom I would love a pup.... especially as its conformation was good- and ears sat perfectly.... would the owner/breeder tell me that the ear set was NOT due to genes, but to glue?

Sorry- I am a total show/standard ignoramus.... so any explanation will be grist for the mill!

[ShesaLikeableBiBear]

Unfortunately sheltie ears have a habit of "flying" or "pricking", and breaking too low, especially when they are teething. It is acceptable to tape or glue them to assist with the ear carriage, however all traces of this must be removed before entering the ring.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Hesapandabear

[persephone]

however all traces of this must be removed before entering the ring.

However, the ears have still been assisted into the position required by the standard ....that is my query. Why is it allowable to artificially train/mould puppy ears?

Will there be (or are there?) splints for tails? To assist in maintaining a tight curl, or to straighten a tail which should not be curling?Or perhaps special boots to tighten up a foot with slightly splayed toes?

I don't really mind if this is done- just that I think what is seen in the ring ,in regard to conformation.should be a naturally occurring/genetic gift- not the gift of blutak or glue,or whatever.

I honestly didn't realise this happened , and find it disappointing.

[Greytmate]

If people are hiding faults by using glue to alter the structure of the ear, then by breeding with those dogs they are perpetuating the ear problems.

[Stitch]

If someone could say catagorically that ear folds were definitely genetic and not just a one off individual thing then I wouldn't be wanting to glue the ears.

Is there anyone who can say this?????

And if you can I would be interested to hear what you base your statement on???

It is in a breeders best interests to only breed from the best and I certainly would not want to perpetuate a genetic problem so I await your information on this subject.

Edited to add: I have never had this problem before in my breed.

Edited March 7, 2010 by STITCH

[Dogsfevr]

In our breed we dont even bother with ears that arent right from 6/8 weeks.

To glue /tape an ear for us it means the ear cartilage is correct & the folds are set right we are just making sure during teething the muscles dont become strong in the up right position which it can do .

In many breed where imports have arrived for countries that crop you end up with all sorts of weird ear sets .

Some will say why use those dogs & the answer is you have to go out & use different lines & sometimes those lines bring issues you may never have had before but you gain something better or clear instead.

You will see breeds like dobes.schnauzers & the likes with big hound ears especially from US/euro parentage because ears arent imporant when cropped although in minis they are breeding natural ears in the US so it makes life much easier.

Many will try & tape ears that simply will never come good & i wouldnt bother .

Greyhounds it can be an issue & for example many racing breeders dont breed for ear set or they lovely rose bud ears,you introduce some of those in your lines & you will end up with funny ears.

We never had to tape our greys ears & was lucky to have lines with exceptional ear sets but the gene pool is small in OZ & if you had a nice dog would attempt to tape

[Bullbreedlover]

Ears come in many shapes, forms, sizes, different ear sets...high set, low set.

With teething ears can be all over the place and actually , just because....... they may not settle down into the correct placement.

All you are dong with glueing or taping is to make sure that a good placement is set with the cartiledge. You are in a gentle way setting it. Its not forced that way, The cartiledge in the ear is not being surgically altered in any way. As I said before I advocate helping out around 7 weeks old and while teething. No earlier.

Of course the thing which can work against you in nature is that you may have a dog(lets say a Bulldog and a Bullmastiff) which both should have high set ears.

But you can have the ear set which is TOO high, and no matter what, you can not alter that. Genetically they were born with a very high ear set. Thats where you can get your fly away ears. Tulip ears in a Bulldog, You can also get a Bulldog ear set in a Bullmastiff, (which is the rose ear.)highly undesirable.

Sometimes, no matter how much you glue or tape, the ears will not form in the correct crease. It is just something you have to live with, but it is alot easier to give the ears a helping hand. Some dont bother and a very good specimen can be ruined. You can also especially with the Bulldogs, end up with dogs with inner ear problems because they have not got the correct ear set, thus preventing air circulation.

I have seen this

When selecting dogs to use over bitches ear set should be important.

Just as important as many other virtues.

It all comes down to selecting the right dogs, or trying to.

I have found over many years now, the Bulldogs and Bullmastiffs in America and alot on the continents have huge thick ears which are not correct.

Bulldogs especially with heavy thick ears.

Alot of the time dogs ears can be massaged into the correct creases. I also recommend this.

A Bulldogs ear is rose for a specific reason. They were bred this way hundreds of years ago.

I have a brilliant Bulldog article on ears which I may post later.

Each person will have to either agree or disagree.

Its because we can.

There are many things that many people do to enhance their dogs appearance.

Gosh they used to use chest spreaders, many many years ago.

Personally glueing or taping ears is way down on the list of do nots.

[persephone]

we are just making sure during teething the muscles dont become strong in the up right position which it can do .

Ok- so if this is a natural happening,and a common phenomenon... then why not have it as accepted in the show ring?

[Dogsfevr]

we are just making sure during teething the muscles dont become strong in the up right position which it can do .

Ok- so if this is a natural happening,and a common phenomenon... then why not have it as accepted in the show ring?

Because it happens a dime a dozen & isnt natural.

We are talking about great danes,dobes,schnauzers & the list goes on.If there ears stood upright what would you think??

Ears set/shapes are clearly listed in the standard & thats what you breed too but some breeds have more technical ears.

For example i would gather in Shelties/Borders & the likes with the introduction of DNA testing that you would have them selected dogs of clear parentage to breed with & this sometimes means having to loss some qualilities toe gain in other areas & then come back when all is good.

We used US based dogs in our breeding programme & we where lucky & didnt get erect ears BUT we got big hound ears .We now when we introduve new lines from varoius countries the pitfalls that can happen but to continue with healthly lines that improve you have to hold your breath & hope you dont pick up some visual apsects

[persephone]

isnt natural.

?? if it happens without human interference, during a normal part of puppy maturation- why is it not natural?

If there ears stood upright what would you think??

personally ? nothing derogatory I have never been involved in breeding for looks- so ,unless something may cause discomfort ,or be dangerous- it doesn't faze me at all.

My experiences with breeding have been in Guide Dogs and working sheepdogs- both of which are/were bred to be sound and of a temperament/propensity to be trained for the job at hand. Looks were/are a poor second .

A Bulldogs ear is rose for a specific reason. They were bred this way hundreds of years ago.

yep - I am guessing it was to do with the original use of the dog in bull baiting, similar to why the nose is set how it is.

Dogs with very open/prominent ears would probably have been culled.

It is always interesting to learn the reasons behind things

Generally- I get now where you are coming from... people expect to see ears look a certain way ...

Thanks.

[Greytmate]

If someone could say catagorically that ear folds were definitely genetic and not just a one off individual thing then I wouldn't be wanting to glue the ears.

Is there anyone who can say this?????

I am not going to say it categorically, but it is a theory. Has anyone kept any records or done a survey on ear taping or glueing so that we can see if it runs in lines or not?

And if you can I would be interested to hear what you base your statement on???

Ear carriage, size, weight, and shape are known to be influenced by genetics. Those things together will affect where the ear naturally folds.

It is in a breeders best interests to only breed from the best and I certainly would not want to perpetuate a genetic problem so I await your information on this subject.

Edited to add: I have never had this problem before in my breed.

It would be interesting to see a detailed survey of all of the dogs in affected lines to see whether dogs that had ears taped or glued went on to produce a good proportion of dogs with naturally 'correct' ears that creased in the right area without any intervention. That would give breeders the information they need for their own lines.

If I was breeding, I could wait to see if somebody posted the information in a forum, or I could try to do survey myself and use that along with other known information about the dogs. Isn't that what breeders do, research the lines of the dogs they intend to breed with?

If across the breed the majority of dog's ears do not meet the standard, then it must be acknowledged that there is some serious work to do.

[Dogsfevr]

http://britmorschnauzers.com/ears.html

This page has photos of varying ear sets in mini schnauzers ,aslo hound ears & the likes

[Stitch]

Yes, I agree, it would be great to read of peoples experiences ie. success or failure with ear glueing however it will still be considered anecdotal.

Personally I am actually very pleased to read all these comments from you guys as you appear to be interested in the cause of this problem hopefully without judgement, and it seems to be much more common than I thought.

There is no where you can ask these kind of questions - vets certainly don't know!

[Trisven13]

I'm not going to criticise what I don't understand Stitch . For those who do tape - do you tape every pup, half, 1 in 4 etc?

[Dogsfevr]

in 25 yrs of breeding taped 4 pups

[ozjen]

A very good question to ask, but is it really any different to shaving a dogs coat or poodle cuts where alot of trimming and hairspray goes into the end product. A good groomer can make a dog with faults look great in the ring (except for those breeds that have insufficient hair to do so ) I know judges should still be able to pick up on what's underneath but this isn't always the case.

I think it comes down to wanting to display the dog at its best in the ring. If a dog has a genetic problem with its ears then taping and glueing wont correct it sufficiently. I believe that the taping and glueing is more about controling the ears during teething when the ears can go rather wayward and as such go out of wack as the ear base is strengthening at this stage in life.

This is not a hit out at any breed, I'm only using the Poodle as an example as it is a breed that gets alot of sculpturing and I'm not sure how else to express what I mean. All dogs in the ring get an element of false aid be it ear gluing, chalking, haispray, clipping or trimming, sheening the coat, groooming to hide faults or feeding supplements to improve coat etc. With breeds that are required to be solid with muscle they are not born that way but exercised to build the muscle, is that really any different, you are still moulding the animal to suit the ring.

[cowanbree]

I'm not going to criticise what I don't understand Stitch . For those who do tape - do you tape every pup, half, 1 in 4 etc?

I have shelties and as a matter of course I glue ears at around 3mths to get them through teething. The vast majority of shelties do need some type of assistance to get the ears just right. I used to let them be more natural and only glue if I had to but then I would get ears that weren't even or slightly higher or lower than I wanted so now I just glue them all. I don't really see ears as a big issue, they are fit and healthy dogs with no sight, hip or temperment issues. I also trim nails and feet which is no different

[Trisven13]

A very good question to ask, but is it really any different to shaving a dogs coat or poodle cuts where alot of trimming and hairspray goes into the end product.

I will confess to feeling the same way about the hairspray . I have a breed where very little is done and the most that is done is done by me. My breeder does nothing other than brush them and occasionally strip out their ears. I use a foam shampoo to clean their coat without softening it and brush up the fur on their legs but that really is it with my breed which may be why I feel this way more.

I also trim nails and feet which is no different.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this - trimming nails is done/should be done by every dog owner and is vastly different to gluing ears into position. I understand now why it is done but have to say I'm still not sure that I think it is different than sticking an extra tooth in Grover's mouth. I will continue to think on it and ask people though.

[WreckitWhippet]

I tape of glue whatever needs it. I've found that lovely little rose ears on Staffords can drop when they teeth and be buggered if I'm going to not tape and have a nice head spoiled by a drop ear.

The last three babies I haven't glued at all, prior to that I did a litter brother and sister.

I glued the ear on Clydes bitch when she stayed with me. She's only a pet but a drop ear was spoiling her head and it was fixed in about ten days.