Dead Fish Gets Its Own Lawyer

[Are You Serious Jo]

I'm not a vegan but I do have an interest in animal welfare and the fact is many animals which are raised for meat in this country are killed with some (legislated) consideration as to the length of time they suffer until they die and in most cases it's shorter than 10 minutes.

But you need to take into account the total time the animal is alive in some cases. A wild caught fish may have a 10 minute fight on the line, but some production animals have a whole lifetime of suffering. Even the trip to the slaughterhouse is longer than 10 minutes, not to mention the catching process.

I spend a bit of time thinking about these things too, and a wild fish has a much better life and death than a farmed animal in most cases. Provided suffering is mimimised then I much prefer harvesting from the wild these days to have a better welfare outcome for our meat. I'd love to see kangaroo harvesting increased, much better sense for us than hoof stock.

[WoofnHoof]

I'm not a vegan but I do have an interest in animal welfare and the fact is many animals which are raised for meat in this country are killed with some (legislated) consideration as to the length of time they suffer until they die and in most cases it's shorter than 10 minutes.

But you need to take into account the total time the animal is alive in some cases. A wild caught fish may have a 10 minute fight on the line, but some production animals have a whole lifetime of suffering. Even the trip to the slaughterhouse is longer than 10 minutes, not to mention the catching process.

I spend a bit of time thinking about these things too, and a wild fish has a much better life and death than a farmed animal in most cases. Provided suffering is mimimised then I much prefer harvesting from the wild these days to have a better welfare outcome for our meat. I'd love to see kangaroo harvesting increased, much better sense for us than hoof stock.

True but there are arguments that the welfare of domestic meat animals overall is better because they are protected from disease, predation etc much better than wild animals are. Still not ideal but it's an argument nonetheless. My point is that at least farm animal management and slaughter has standards to regulate it and one would hope those standards are based on a continual improvement ideal as well as based on what we know about animal pain and stress.

I think a lot of welfare issues are a battle of perception battery hens are still in cages but a lot of people don't agree with this (even though many of them still buy cage eggs for the sake of $2) while many agree with hauling a fish on a line, which is different again to a roo being shot. In an ideal world the roo being shot would be happily living as a roo one minute the next minute it's dead, and that is an ideal we can work towards with good hunting practices, with hooking fish the ideal time to death can be much longer so how do we minimise it? That is my point I guess, just getting people to acknowledge that fish deserve no less consideration in their capture and slaughter than any other animal be it captive, domestic or wild-caught and maybe start to think about better ways of catching fish with their welfare in mind.

It is our perception that makes changes in animal welfare outcomes possible, if we still percieved cattle to be dumb beasts Temple Grandin wouldn't be getting paid whatever it is she gets paid to comment on cattle handling and design better handling faciilties, she is listened to because she convinced people that cattle aren't baulking because they are stupid they are balking because they see and percieve light, shadows and shapes differently and showed people that this perception needs to be taken into account when designing facilities and handling the animals.

[sandgrubber]

I don't expect to agree with everything any court decides.

Still, having courts is a good thing. Even if the decision was that the angler did nothing wrong, it would have been good that an attempt was made to determine whether it was senseless/needless cruelty.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I fully agree that we need standards in welfare, it's my line of work as well. I don't agree that domestic animals have a better welfare outcome because the standards are quite low and allow a lot of suffering. Look at meat chickens for example, they aren't protected from disease, because the selection for fast growth actually causes disease.

I would like to see invertebrates receive protection and include fish as well. But I don't want to see hand fishing banned because overall the wild fish has lived a much better life in terms of welfare. People are a lot more conscious of fish welfare now, there are barbless hooks and many people are taught how to reduce injury to fish they release back after catching.

[WoofnHoof]

I know what you mean it just shocks me when some people - fellow animal lovers no less - comment about how ridiculous it is that a dead fish has a lawyer and don't see that it's about the underlying principle of not just accepting that line fishing is a-ok but making sure we continually re-evaluate our animal welfare standards whether it's making sure companion animals aren't churned out on a production line or ensuring that wild-caught fish aren't treated like inanimate objects. I'd love to see the outcomes of meat chickens and other food animals improved too but until people start facing the reality that they have to pay more for better welfare for their animal products it's always going to be far more difficult to enact change in this area.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I don't like stunts like this though, it just diminishes the importance of welfare because all people see are animal rights nutters. It is hard enough having to qualify everything you do when you meet new people, they are so ready to think looney when you mention animal welfare, this sort of thing doesn't help at all.

[centitout]

Come and watch the pigs being loaded onto the truck next time-1/2 hr of extreme stress,then the journey(here it was only short thank god) but often in 40 degree heat,then unloaded,mixed pigs all fighting with each other,boars and sows in together,then wet down and big tongs shoved in their ears and a big bolt of electricity sent down into the brain.

How does that equate to 10 mins before death .

Yet people still enjoy their bacon,i do and i used to have to pick which of my boars i was handling was to be sent off that week because they had gotten too big and i used to cry each time-but that is what we do-we eat meat(most of us)

But thats humane according to what some vets equate the meaning of animal welfare and a quick death.A bullet would be better.

[sandgrubber]

Come and watch the pigs being loaded onto the truck next time-1/2 hr of extreme stress,then the journey(here it was only short thank god) but often in 40 degree heat,then unloaded,mixed pigs all fighting with each other,boars and sows in together,then wet down and big tongs shoved in their ears and a big bolt of electricity sent down into the brain.

How does that equate to 10 mins before death .

Yet people still enjoy their bacon,i do and i used to have to pick which of my boars i was handling was to be sent off that week because they had gotten too big and i used to cry each time-but that is what we do-we eat meat(most of us)

But thats humane according to what some vets equate the meaning of animal welfare and a quick death.A bullet would be better.

Wonder what happens to Swiss pigs?

[WoofnHoof]

That's what frustrates me as well the negative associations that have been made as a result of animal rights capers, but I wish people wouldn't jump to the conclusion that just because something has a whacky headline it means it's an animal rights plot to ban fishing. Whacky headlines are pretty much standard fare in the UK press anyway.

[whippets]

Those who havn't seen it need to watch River Cottage and see how animals should be raised and then humanely prepared for the kitchen table.

That Pike had a far better life in the wild than grain fed beef, pigs and chooks bred for the slaughter. It's fantastical how some people stay ignorant as to what gets dished up to their table yet complain about animal welfare. If you don't like the way people fish then go tie yourself to someones fishing rod and protest.

[WoofnHoof]

Come and watch the pigs being loaded onto the truck next time-1/2 hr of extreme stress,then the journey(here it was only short thank god) but often in 40 degree heat,then unloaded,mixed pigs all fighting with each other,boars and sows in together,then wet down and big tongs shoved in their ears and a big bolt of electricity sent down into the brain.

How does that equate to 10 mins before death .

Yet people still enjoy their bacon,i do and i used to have to pick which of my boars i was handling was to be sent off that week because they had gotten too big and i used to cry each time-but that is what we do-we eat meat(most of us)

But thats humane according to what some vets equate the meaning of animal welfare and a quick death.A bullet would be better.

I used to work at a pork production facility, don't know about loading practices that's handled by the supplier but on arrival they were penned in small groups (better not to let them fight it damages the meat), water sprays from the ceiling on hot days and stunning involved herding them into a chamber which then filled with CO2, once stunned they were bled out.

You say a bullet would be better, would that be a well aimed bullet at a target that doesn't move at the wrong moment? What happens if it's not well aimed and the target moves? Most methods have the potential to be either humane or inhumane depending on the conditions and the handler.

Whippets interesting you should say that the pike had a better life in the wild, how do you measure that better life in the wild? The quality of life in the wild is dependent on many factors and is not guarenteed to be better than that of a captive animal.

[whippets]

Come and watch the pigs being loaded onto the truck next time-1/2 hr of extreme stress,then the journey(here it was only short thank god) but often in 40 degree heat,then unloaded,mixed pigs all fighting with each other,boars and sows in together,then wet down and big tongs shoved in their ears and a big bolt of electricity sent down into the brain.

How does that equate to 10 mins before death .

Yet people still enjoy their bacon,i do and i used to have to pick which of my boars i was handling was to be sent off that week because they had gotten too big and i used to cry each time-but that is what we do-we eat meat(most of us)

But thats humane according to what some vets equate the meaning of animal welfare and a quick death.A bullet would be better.

I used to work at a pork production facility, don't know about loading practices that's handled by the supplier but on arrival they were penned in small groups (better not to let them fight it damages the meat), water sprays from the ceiling on hot days and stunning involved herding them into a chamber which then filled with CO2, once stunned they were bled out.

You say a bullet would be better, would that be a well aimed bullet at a target that doesn't move at the wrong moment? What happens if it's not well aimed and the target moves? Most methods have the potential to be either humane or inhumane depending on the conditions and the handler.

Whippets interesting you should say that the pike had a better life in the wild, how do you measure that better life in the wild? The quality of life in the wild is dependent on many factors and is not guarenteed to be better than that of a captive animal.

How do you measure that it doesn't? As with everything else that is to do with Animal Rights it is all human perspective on what WE think an animal wants or has a right to have. As if humans have a clue what animals REALLY want or are thinking.

[hoffpig]

I think it is great to see these issues being raised for debate - ambit boundaries, ambit moralities. A new generation is already grappling with a future no one can take for granted, and I'm impressed and humbled by the number of smart and savvy vegos that my bloke's vegan 17-year-old grandson numbers among his circle. It's not for everyone, but it doesn't feel like a bad thing, either.

[wildairbc]

All these sorts of debates outline to me is how humans ever more exclude themselves from the Real World, which is Nature and humans are but one more animal in the weave.

I don't suppose that coyotes consider the stress the rabbit is under as they chase it to it's death. I don't suppose that anyone is going to agree to ending motorized transportation due to it's well known violence against bugs?

Human beings are predators like any other and while we CAN insure humane treatment of animals that we purposely raise for food, when humans hunt/fish, it is as natural as a raccoon snapping up a minnow.

Like it or or not, that is Nature's way.

[Nekhbet]

OMG What an absolute farce

and how exactly is one to limit the time dragging a fish out ... shall we start cutting the lines after a set time limit? There's something, fish with lines and hooks all over the place.

Amazing how the average person gets picked on yet why dont they go pick on dolphin clubbers, Gill net fishing that just indiscriminantly wipes the waters of everything alive. Look at Geelong, A couple of years ago the pinkies were throwing themselves at you, now they're gradually coming back. Funny, in the inbetween period I saw the shops filled with pinkies at a size that would have had me raked over hot coals.

I think some people need to get a life, honestly.

[Steve]

I know what you mean it just shocks me when some people - fellow animal lovers no less - comment about how ridiculous it is that a dead fish has a lawyer and don't see that it's about the underlying principle of not just accepting that line fishing is a-ok but making sure we continually re-evaluate our animal welfare standards whether it's making sure companion animals aren't churned out on a production line or ensuring that wild-caught fish aren't treated like inanimate objects. I'd love to see the outcomes of meat chickens and other food animals improved too but until people start facing the reality that they have to pay more for better welfare for their animal products it's always going to be far more difficult to enact change in this area.

Crap- Thinking its stupid to give animals lawyers isnt the same as wanting them to suffer. I think its stupid to give animals lawyers.

[WoofnHoof]

All these sorts of debates outline to me is how humans ever more exclude themselves from the Real World, which is Nature and humans are but one more animal in the weave.

I don't suppose that coyotes consider the stress the rabbit is under as they chase it to it's death. I don't suppose that anyone is going to agree to ending motorized transportation due to it's well known violence against bugs?

Human beings are predators like any other and while we CAN insure humane treatment of animals that we purposely raise for food, when humans hunt/fish, it is as natural as a raccoon snapping up a minnow.

Like it or or not, that is Nature's way.

It could be argued that the coyotes don't consider the stress the rabbit is under because they lack the theory of mind and higher order conciousness which is what makes humans feel empathy for species other than their own. If the coyote did have the mental capacity to put itself in the shoes of the rabbit and feel it's pain maybe it would try harder to make the death quicker, maybe it would go veg? Who knows but since humans do have the capacity to feel for other animals and the desire to reduce the suffering we cause be it nature or not it should be explored in all it's forms.

I know what you mean it just shocks me when some people - fellow animal lovers no less - comment about how ridiculous it is that a dead fish has a lawyer and don't see that it's about the underlying principle of not just accepting that line fishing is a-ok but making sure we continually re-evaluate our animal welfare standards whether it's making sure companion animals aren't churned out on a production line or ensuring that wild-caught fish aren't treated like inanimate objects. I'd love to see the outcomes of meat chickens and other food animals improved too but until people start facing the reality that they have to pay more for better welfare for their animal products it's always going to be far more difficult to enact change in this area.

Crap- Thinking its stupid to give animals lawyers isnt the same as wanting them to suffer. I think its stupid to give animals lawyers.

It's their legal system maybe it works maybe it doesn't, but prosecution lawyers that try cases under animal welfare laws are essentially working as advocates for the animals, the governments work as advocates for the animals when they make these laws even if it is through the will of the people. It all amounts to the same thing from what I can tell it's just semantics.

[Steve]

It's their legal system maybe it works maybe it doesn't, but prosecution lawyers that try cases under animal welfare laws are essentially working as advocates for the animals, the governments work as advocates for the animals when they make these laws even if it is through the will of the people. It all amounts to the same thing from what I can tell it's just semantics.

Nup Im not buying that - in my opinion its straight out lost the plot animal rights craziness.

Considering having legal people representing dead fish is just too stupid - and its way past basic common sense or sanity.