My Best Friend Is Planning On Buying A Sbt

[Chocolatelover]

Hi Guys,

I just spoke to my best friend in Brisbane and she mentioned they were planning on getting a SBT pup around Easter. She mentioned they would probably get it from the paper. She then had to put up with my preaching for the next half hour (in a nice way) and she took it all on board and said she would think about what I had said. She said they had actually applied to a few breeders and had been accepted but the paper was a more affordable option for them. I talked about the health of the parents etc and how a good breeder would provide support but I am not sure what health issues to watch out for with SBTs.

So she is open to listening and I said I would start a thread here and then email her the link so that she could see what you guys thought. Also if anyone knows of any breeders they have had a really good experience with could they let me know. The good thing is she is not interested in the "blue" colour, I think good temperament would be more of an issue. Not sure about which sex she preferred either.

She has two young children (3 and 5), works a couple of nights a week (husband is home with the kids) and they would let the dog inside, probably with some restrictions (eg carpeted areas) but would like the dog to sleep inside, possibly with her son once the pup is older, toilet trained etc. She had a collie x who she lost a couple of years ago who was around 13 or 14 and loved her to bits.

If anyone has any good advice or something to convince her that registered breeder is the way to go, that would be great!!!!

Thanks in advance

[ellz]

Getting a dog from the paper isn't necessarily a BAD thing. It isn't so much where the puppy is sourced.

What matters is that it is from a breeder who tests for HC - L2HGA. One is an eye issue (hereditary cataract) the other is a metabolic disorder which can present somewhat like epilepsy. Any prospective purchaser should ask about these tests. If the person on the other end of the phone has no idea what they are talking about, then the purchaser should walk quickly away and look elsewhere.

Unfortunately, the problem is proving to be more widespread than initially thought and sadly, not even all registered breeders are testing which means that many backyard litters could at best be carriers of these disorders, or even worse be affected or produce affected offspring. And ultimately, that would mean that the purchaser would end up with little or no support or recourse from the breeder.

It isn't completely necessary or sometimes even possible to view both parents. And honestly, unless it is a reputable, registered breeder, it is probably better if the sire does NOT live in the same place as the dam. Especially in the case of an unregistered breeder because this can often mean that the bloodlines are incompatible or that the breeding has been done for convenience and not to produce a quality puppy from the bloodlines and animals that best suit the breeding.

It should ALWAYS be possible to view the dam of the litter, unless she has tragically passed away since the litter was born. That is unlikely, but it does happen. The temperament of the dam should be noted. She may not necessarily be kennelled WITH the puppies, but she should still be witnessed with them because her reaction and treatment of them is often an indicator of what the puppies temperaments will be like when they grow up.

Don't be surprised if breeders will not allow visiting until after vaccinations have been done. Some do allow visitors from early on, but others prefer not to have strangers in the vicinity of the puppies until they have some protection from illness.

[Crisovar]

Many GOOD registered breeders actually advertise in the paper and on the internet, regardless of where she searches she needs to do her homework first. Please do not pre judge simply because of where the adds are.

[becandcharch]

In case she's thinking about a pet shop I have sent this to people before -

http://www.wheredopuppiescomefrom.com.au/

[ellz]

Exactly Crisovar.

I've often said here, and in other places, that reputable breeders NEED to advertise more in newspapers and on online pet selling sites.

If only to give a genuine and interested buy some CHOICE!

It's no use complaining about the ethics of people who advertise on the website starting with P, or in the Trading Post, or the local classifieds if that is the first point of call for Joe Q and that is the only choice that he has.

Not every Joe Q knows about the state controlling bodies, or DOL, or any of the other places where good breeders "hang out" so they use the resources that are available to them.

We need to be there, visible and ready to educate if we are ever going to be truly competitive and put a wedge in the market of the BYB and miller.

[Chocolatelover]

Becandarch - I have the poster from their website on my fridge. It is a good conversation starter and has educated quite a few people about the horrors of pet shops. :D

So do reputable breeders sell their pups for around $500 in the paper??? I guess I assumed these would be back yard breeders since she said the average price from the registered breeders she had filled out the application for was around $1000 but in the paper they were $500 which was more affordable for them.

I don't agree with people breeding their pet to make a quick buck and I would have thought that the majority of litters in the trading post were from BYBs out a quick dollar? Since "reputable" breeders seem to have waiting lists I would have assumed (wrongly obviously) that they would have no need to put ads in the paper?? And with the number of ads in the trading postr how on earth does the average person go about sorting legitimate from non-legitimate?? Would it not be better just to educate people to choose reputable breeders instead??

I guess when she sees this link she will go through the paper anyway I just hate the thought of putting five hundred dollars in someone's pocket who sees their pet as a source of income

PS She did find the breeders on the net and filled out application forms with details about her home and lifestyle and was approved but her husband doesn't see the point of paying $1000 when they are in the paper for $500

[ellz]

How can you educate people if they just go straight to the newspaper and ONLY find BYBers?

That's my point. That is why reputable breeders NEED to "mix it" with the "opposition".

Price is quite often an indicator of whether or not a breeder is a BYBer. I would say that it is almost certain that a puppy for $500 is BYB. Generalising of course, which can be dangerous. But by the same token, not ALL breeders charge $1000 or more for a Limited Register companion puppy either.

Anywhere from around $650 upwards would be the norm IMO.

Not every breeder has waiting lists. Not every breeder KEEPS "waiting lists". For example, I maintain a "register of interest". I take enquiries, work through them and weed them out. By the time I am ready to place a puppy, not everybody will still be interested so I may or may not have to look further for homes.

This litter, I had 9 puppies. I did place one advertisement in our local paper and from that advertisement came a wonderful, knowledgeable home. Their previous Stafford had died just before Christmas at the ripe old age of SEVENTEEN!! They still had to go through my normal selection process, although I do admit that I felt that somebody who could keep a dog alive for that long had to have something good about them!

I had also put listings on the "P" website and managed (I hope) to educate a few people who contacted me.

The whole point is that you cannot educate somebody if you cannot reach them. The clubs should be placing regular advertisements to "catch" the windowshoppers and browsers. Breeders should be using ALL avenues available to them to catch and educate potential purchasers.

And above all else, the elitist view of newspapers being "bad" really does have to stop or there will never be any stopping the BYBers and millers who trade on the elitism of registered breeders.

[GeckoTree]

nothing wrong with the paper, not everyone has internet.

[Dogsfevr]

Who says the internet has better breeders.

I dont see where the if its in the paper they must be bad has appeared from lately.

Before average Joe had computers everyone advertised in the paper.

Even now i now plenty of well known/ethical breeders who still use the paper because commen sense tels you thats the first place most people look.

It doesnt matter what the form of advertising is its all about doing your homework & buying with your head

[Chocolatelover]

Thanks for replies - I guess my point was missed so definitely not sending her this link

I'm not really interested in listening to people defend their decision to advertise in the paper or not. My point was that my friend is choosing a cheaper pup from the paper (cheaper because it has no papers) which I believe is likely to be from a BYB and the parents probably not health tested. She all ready went the registered breeder route via the internet as her first option so the debate is not about where to source her pup. I have been burned by a registered breeder recently and my intention was to get some recommendations and some insight to the health issues with SBTs so she had a heads up on questions to ask to make sure she gets a healthy pup. I just thought a bit of encouragement from people to spend the extra money and go through a registered breeder from this forum may sway her decision rather than buying "cheaper" through the paper.

Thanks anyway

[Crisovar]

Thanks for replies - I guess my point was missed so definitely not sending her this link

I'm not really interested in listening to people defend their decision to advertise in the paper or not. My point was that my friend is choosing a cheaper pup from the paper (cheaper because it has no papers) which I believe is likely to be from a BYB and the parents probably not health tested. She all ready went the registered breeder route via the internet as her first option so the debate is not about where to source her pup. I have been burned by a registered breeder recently and my intention was to get some recommendations and some insight to the health issues with SBTs so she had a heads up on questions to ask to make sure she gets a healthy pup. I just thought a bit of encouragement from people to spend the extra money and go through a registered breeder from this forum may sway her decision rather than buying "cheaper" through the paper.

Thanks anyway

The actual issue is the price and the quality, but your topic heading is about the newspaper ads.

It is this that people are responding to, our bad.

[ellz]

If you read my first reply, you will get the information with regard to finding a puppy AND the necessary health testing that should be undertaken by any SBT breeder.

[lappiemum]

Thanks for replies - I guess my point was missed so definitely not sending her this link

I'm not really interested in listening to people defend their decision to advertise in the paper or not. My point was that my friend is choosing a cheaper pup from the paper (cheaper because it has no papers) which I believe is likely to be from a BYB and the parents probably not health tested. She all ready went the registered breeder route via the internet as her first option so the debate is not about where to source her pup. I have been burned by a registered breeder recently and my intention was to get some recommendations and some insight to the health issues with SBTs so she had a heads up on questions to ask to make sure she gets a healthy pup. I just thought a bit of encouragement from people to spend the extra money and go through a registered breeder from this forum may sway her decision rather than buying "cheaper" through the paper.

Thanks anyway

You may wish to point out to your friend and her partner that going for the cheapest option may be false economy. First, consider the costs to 'do it right' in terms of breeding. To start with, there is the expereince and knowledge of the professional breeder - they should be knoweldgeable in their breed, many spending years, if not decades, devoted to their breed. A good breeder will be willing to support and assist those who are looking getting a dog from them, and to share their love and knowledge of their breed. Then there is the pre-mating costs - testing breeding animals does cost $$, and if it doesn go well, then that's that. As to the mating itself - if the breeder does not own the stud (which is often the case) there are stud fees etc, more tests to see if the mating was successful, count puppies etc etc. A good breeder will ensure that the dam has the best health care and nutrition during her preganancy, and ofcourse, if there are complications in the whelping that will cost big $$$$. The puppies will need to be vet checked, vaccinated, wormed etc - and thats before you even get to registration fees. In short, doing it properly adds up considerably.

However, the alternative may be very costly for the buyer. A breeder who does not health test, doesn't look at lines for instances of breed problems, doesn't worry too much about the health and welfare of the dam and puppies, and just wants to make a quick buck on the pet dog is one that is ripe for having all sorts of nasty problems crop up - and once the cash is handed over, do you think they will want to know about these? There was a thread here recently about someone who ended up with a parvo puppy - very, very expensive, and heartbreaking. Not to mention the actual abnormalities that can occur in the breed itself - if these are not tested for, let alone known about, what guarantee does you friend have that they will not be paying big $$$ down the track because they lucked out?

In short, you get what you pay for. If your friend buys from a byber, what guarantee do they have that its even the breed that they want? What health tests have been done? What is the temperament of both lines like? What knowledge and understanding of the breed does the breeder have? Most importantly, what guarantees will they have should it all go pear shaped?

Ask her those questions, perhaps that is more helpful. :D

[nicolatu]

Totally agreed!