Tango (dalmatian) Update

[Janba]

When we got home he was staggering around, disorientated and wobbly. His back legs were particularly wierd and he didn't seem able to stand properly. Twice he stagger-ran away from me and headed down the back of our property and then collapsed in the hot sun. I dragged/carried him inside and wouldn't let him back out again. He wouldn't eat (unheard of with Tango) or drink. I was absolutely terrified for him. I syringed lectade water into his mouth and wiped honey onto his gums etc to try and help him. Every now and then he'd get up and stagger around the house trying to get outside. I was considering waiting till dark and then returning to St Helens for an emergency vet visit.

I went through something very similar with Mishka a few weeks ago. If you belong to the aussiedals yahoo group I have described it there. She was like a dog coming out of anaesthetic and had a complete personality change - she acted like a she had never met me before and it was like having a wild unsociallised dog who was doped out of their mind. I was terrified the first night I was going to loose her. She also didn't eat but it was like she had forgatten how - just wondered around the backyard with a piece of meat in her mouth.

She did recover to normal - took a week or so and she went from 23.95kg to 22.22 in about 3 days.

The general concensus of my vet and the neurologist vet at the specailist centre was some sort of neuro toxin. Her liver tests were abnormal so they didn't know if it was something she had eaten or her liver was unable to filter the normal toxins out of her bllod so they built up to a toxic level. Her follow up liver tests on Tues were completely normal so we are non the wiser as to what happened. It still maybe a liver or something external.

Has your vet suggested testing his liver?

I hope he recovers for you.

[juice]

i have a dally who stone forms :D

he is now on optinum chicken and rice, with a wing for brekky, and 2 necks with the kibble for tea, its really good for putting on weight too, mine needs to lose some :D

[Kynta]

I mixed banana, ground Flax seed (as well as the oil) and honey in with it and the three of us - me Pepper and Tango all shared it.

This gave me a beautiful mental picture!

But that was a scary setback. All the best in sorting him out. It looks like you have done wonders to date. Keep up the good work.

[JulesP]

If you like VAN check out Phuds. It is a very similar product. You get it from Browns Herbal http://www.browns-animal-herbals.com.au/index.php. They might be able to take out any ingredients that Tango can't have as I know they have made up feed for other people.

[spottychick]

I mixed banana, ground Flax seed (as well as the oil) and honey in with it and the three of us - me Pepper and Tango all shared it.

This gave me a beautiful mental picture!

But that was a scary setback. All the best in sorting him out. It looks like you have done wonders to date. Keep up the good work.

LOL Not from the same bowl :D :D

[Jed]

Malabsorption is fairy uncommon, and always characterised by quite smelly diarrohea or very loose stools.

Re his behaviour on arriving home - sounds a bit like heat stress to me, caused by heat and stress, and not drinking, and because of the heat/stress, him being slightly hypoglycaemic. If he does it again, syringe glucodin and water into him immediately.

Also cool him down, run the hose on his stomach (not iced water) or put wet towels on him. Wet his head too, there is info on getting temps down all over the place, that's all I can remember, and too lazy to go and look.

[Kajtek]

So glad that he is better. Yes, it does sound like heat stress.

Can Tango have sardines? Can you feed him 3 x day?

Re dry food, I feed my lot Holistic Eagle Pack. I am not sure if this is suitable for Tango but there is chicken variety.

[kamuzz]

Think Eagle Pack Holistic also have a fish version, which would be OK for him.

(You might get more answers to a suitable dry food in the dally thread itself.)

[spottychick]

Thanks so much for all your suggestions guys/gals!

Jed - I did wet him down with towels (he is terrified of hoses as he used to get beaten with one apparently) and I syringed water/lectade into his mouth and gave him honey (literally shovelled it into his mouth with my hand eeeuuww). I found info online about how to deal with heat stroke/stress etc - gotta love the interwebby thing!! ;) Thanks for the glucodin suggestion - I think it would be a good idea to get some in for him coz I'm sure it will happen again!

Kamuzz/Anna - Eagle Pack are fantastic and if I buy kibble at all it's usually EP (and I recommend it to people all the time). I need to consult with the vet about which one - if any - he could have tho. But yes, if I can use EP for him I'd be more than happy!

Anna - Unfortunately sardines are on the high purine list so no, he can't have them. There's so many things he can't have.

I've also had some suggestions from the dally thread and they were great, as well as checking out links to specific sites about this condition. I've been feeding him suggested diets and he's doing okay on them but he's just not getting bigger. So it's just a matter of working out how to increase his weight without putting him at risk, which is a little trickier and I really don't expect anyone here to have the answer - but sure do appreciate all the thoughts and possible directions.

Jules - I've heard of Phuds before and was reluctant to use it due to some of the ingredients so it's good to know they are flexible!!! I'll definitely check that one out.

Juice - I did check out the Optimum when you suggested it a while back but for some reason I didn't follow up on it. LOL Cant remember why I'm so confuzzled with it all. But will have another look at it

[Staff'n'Toller]

Have your Vet speak to the Vets at Royal Canin- that's what they're there for, and they're in research and breed specific formulations so they must know *something* about Dalmatians and stone formation.

I know you said not Hills but as an example we phoned the Hills helpline and had one of the specialists there phone us back with tonnes of info about which food types were going to fit and the possible consequences of each for one of our cases.

Can Dalmatians eat the Box 1 4x2 biscuits? I know it's mainly cereal and mutton (not sure of the exact ingredients) but I've always used them as an added extra each day to help put on a bit for dogs that need it.

[spottychick]

Hi staff'ntoller

Sorry I didn't reply to you earlier - I didnt realise there'd been another post since I last posted - I shouldn't rely so much on the "view new posts" button!!!

I heard back from the vet, he mailed me a note saying "Just don't feed him any meat and you can buy prescription diet for him" which I have to say did not impress me at all.

I might try calling Hills myself and see what they say - like you said - not necessarily to buy their food but to see if they have something more intelligent to add than the "vet".

Meanwhile my search for a decent vet in tassie continues.

I don't know about the biscuits you mentioned - I would need to read the ingredients - are they a Hills product?

Thank you so much for your ideas!

[spottychick]

And just another update on Tango.

A week or so ago I posted in the dally thread that he had attacked Pepper out of the blue. for no apparent reason, causing her to scream out and resulting in a small injury near her eye. Because of that I have been contemplating whether I need to rehome him or not.

But he is so very good in other ways and progressing amazingly well. His obedience training is fantastic - I really want to get him to a training group or with a trainer to progress him further. I think he's keen to learn. I'm finding it hard to imagine parting with him now. So I've been researching crates/muzzles and behaviour stuff to see if I can resolve this issue he has with Pepper.

He has had one other go at pepper since he injured her face, but at least that time I could see what the trigger was (she had a tug toy in her mouth). So I have a better idea of how to manage that one.

Anyway, the good news is that today Pepper had the tug toy and was hiding around the back of the couch playing "chase me" and Tango just followed me while I chased her. Then he wanted to join in as the chasee but instead of snarling and attacking Pepper to get the toy, he grabbed one of my running shoes and took off outside with it. Hahahahahaha.

I was faced with a dilemma. I really don't want to encourage him to steal my shoes BUT he had behaved so well around Pepper that I let him go. Pepper and I then chased Tango around the back yard until I got the shoe and gave him a tug toy instead. Then we chased him again but with him hurling the tug toy in the air etc instead of my shoe.

Long story short - suddenly he dropped the toy and looked in this very still, alert sort of way at a row of hedges near my veggie garden. I could see Peppers feet on the other side of the hedge and he was looking at her. I took a breath and waited to see what he would do. Pepper started to run along the length of the hedge and Tango took off after her, head down, moving like he was after prey, with just the hedge between them. As Pepper emerged from the end of the hedge row, Tango raced around and to her side and..... (here I was holding my breath and hanging on to my belief that he is not really vicious).... did a play bow at her, yipped excitedly like a silly puppy then spun in a couple of circles and they raced off together doing zoomies!!!!!

OH MY GOD!!!

They were playing zoomies and chasey together in the back yard. It didnt last long, just a few seconds, but .......... wow! What a break through!!!!

So I'm not saying he's cured of his snapping etc and attacking of Pepper BUT this did help me feel optimistic that this wierd fear aggression he has (toward me and Pepper) CAN be resolved over time. ;)

[voloclydes]

wow he so is another leo...

he did not know how to play perriod with humans. he learned tug first day but the dogs took a while....he was too rough....

he plays with the one his age but not the older one, who will still take his head off at the shoulders.

[spottychick]

wow he so is another leo...

he did not know how to play perriod with humans. he learned tug first day but the dogs took a while....he was too rough....

he plays with the one his age but not the older one, who will still take his head off at the shoulders.

awww poor little Leo - bet he's not doing zoomies with anyone right now ;)

[Aidan]

The crate is a good idea for several reasons, but from what you have written I wouldn't be using a muzzle with Tango. Muzzles can be useful where there is some probability of an UNinhibited (damaging) bite. A small injury near the eye is likely to be accidental, the alarm bells start ringing for me when the attacking dog is biting legs, stomach or throat (in nearly all contexts, this is not a complete list). I also have concerns if a dog is ignoring normal social signals from the other dog, particularly if play or discipline becomes excessive.

Tango seems to be learning how to fit in pretty well. If you have any concerns about his behaviour while you are not there to supervise then by all means separate them while you are not there but otherwise these infrequent little spats that get resolved quickly without real injury or obviously abnormal, antisocial behaviour are pretty much just par for the course. The bite:fight ratio here (from memory of your reports) appears to be pretty good, no damaging bites out of several [brief] scuffles.

[spottychick]

Hi Aiden - thanks for you input. ;) I appreciate your advice around this and what you say makes sense.

I kinda regard the facial cut as one injury tho, especially because it was quite deep and a fraction away from her eye.

But I have to say, a couple of days ago Pepper was suddenly attacked by a pitbull cross that came screaming out of someones yard when we were out walking. I watched this animal streak across the road, no warning, no barking or growling, grab Pepper by the throat with this ferocious vicious snarling and then half climb onto her back and attempt to drag her off her feet while hanging on to her neck. This all happened in seconds and Pepper was off-lead just a metre or so ahead of us, as she always is (it's not usually a problem here to have her off-lead)

Fortunately I managed to frighten the little so-and-so off momentarily (by very unwisely yelling at it and running toward it - but I couldn't help it! He/she had Pepper by the throat and I could see a serious disaster about to happen!!!) and then it's stupid owner must have heard me yelling coz he whistled and the dog raced back to the yard.

Pepper was pretty much okay and had stayed very calm and still throughout the whole thing (she amazes me she really does). But it really put Tango's behaviour into perspective. His attacks are nothing like that. As you say, he doesn't (or hasn't) gone for the throat or stomach. He HAS bitten her legs but it's POSSIBLE this was an attempt at play. It's so hard to tell with him - he tends to snarl at the oddest times. But in any case, I know what you mean, there is not that actual intent to do harm that I saw at such a high level in that pitbull. Man it was horrible, my heart nearly popped right out of my throat!!

I also noticed Tango, who was on a lunge lead and normally would have been ahead with Pepper, stayed very calm and by my side during the attack - he did not attempt to join in which I was relieved about. It was like he expected me to deal with it. Which I sort-of did, more by luck than anything I suspect.

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts. They really do help.

[spottychick]

PS Aiden - Why wouldn't you use a muzzle? I do actually have a feeling it would have a detrimental effect on Tango - no reason I can articulate, just a feeling it would be a bad idea.

And as for normal spats between dogs, I guess I've just been lucky with all the dogs I've had before that, apart from maybe one intitial sorting out scuffle, they've all been incredibly loving and gentle with each other.

I have a fave pic of the three I used to have (including Pepper) plus the cat (!!!), all scrunched up together and top of each other in one medium sized basket - even tho there were two other big beds nearby.

[Aidan]

PS Aiden - Why wouldn't you use a muzzle? I do actually have a feeling it would have a detrimental effect on Tango - no reason I can articulate, just a feeling it would be a bad idea.

There are a few reasons but the biggest concern is that it does inhibit what would otherwise be NORMAL communication. If a dog bites another dog but causes no real harm the dog who was bitten learns that he is not in immediate mortal danger and the other has said his piece and can get on with life, also knowing that the other dog isn't going to do anything too drastic should a future disagreement occur.

Put a muzzle on a dog and neither dog knows what is going on and things can get out of control very quickly. You use a muzzle when the horse has already bolted and you need safety. There are some exceptions to this rule but that's a discussion for another day.

The bite to the eye might have been intentional but it's a funny place for a dog to aim a bite so my guess is that it was accidental. If you can imagine if you were a dog intending to cause harm to another dog, why would you bite near the eye when it exposes your throat to your victim who will use lethal force to defend himself?

The attack on Pepper sounds horrible and malicious. Take care with that neighbour's dog!

[Loving my Oldies]

They were playing zoomies and chasey together in the back yard. It didnt last long, just a few seconds, but .......... wow! What a break through!!!!

I think Tango is just the luckiest dog to have found you and Pepper, spottychick .

It also sounds as though you still have the good and the bad which can be so stressful, but I can empathise with how wonderful it is when you see dogs who previously had issues starting to play and just be happy dogs.

[spottychick]

There are a few reasons but the biggest concern is that it does inhibit what would otherwise be NORMAL communication. If a dog bites another dog but causes no real harm the dog who was bitten learns that he is not in immediate mortal danger and the other has said his piece and can get on with life, also knowing that the other dog isn't going to do anything too drastic should a future disagreement occur.

Put a muzzle on a dog and neither dog knows what is going on and things can get out of control very quickly. You use a muzzle when the horse has already bolted and you need safety. There are some exceptions to this rule but that's a discussion for another day.

The bite to the eye might have been intentional but it's a funny place for a dog to aim a bite so my guess is that it was accidental. If you can imagine if you were a dog intending to cause harm to another dog, why would you bite near the eye when it exposes your throat to your victim who will use lethal force to defend himself?

The attack on Pepper sounds horrible and malicious. Take care with that neighbour's dog!

That all makes absolute sense Aiden! Thank you for responding

I think I'll just get him a basic muzzle for when I want to clip his claws etc (at some point soon he's gonna need to be washed LOL) and for emergencies and leave it at that.

As for the neighbours dog, I won't be walking the dogs down that way again.