Quickasyoucan Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Some primates have hunting behaviours that could be compared to prey drive in dogs. I have to admit to being a bit of an animal planet freak and do remember some particularly vicious (well from my point of view) hunting footage of primates but I can't remember whether it was chimps or baboons, just that it was really really bloody and I think involved hunting other monkeys. I suppose we humans have modified prey drive anyway. Ball games? Hockey, Soccer, Football, Baketball, Netball etc I know I definitely have FOOD chocolate drive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Chimps hunt colobus monkeys and they get into a very aroused state when doing so. Chimps also form hunting parties and patrol territory boundaries and will kill intruders at times. They are very quiet while patrolling so they can modify their behaviours, even though both outcomes results in death of another individual. With dogs I think the key is remembering that they are not wolves and their behaviours have been changed substantially, so you have to take this into account when training. I'm keen to see how I can improve my dogs herding by training in drive, she is an older dog and a bit weak nerved so it might help her a bit too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 (edited) I suppose we humans have modified prey drive anyway. Ball games? Hockey, Soccer, Football, Basketball, Netball etc I think this would clasified as play drive Prey would be hunting. Edited March 5, 2010 by MonElite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Monelite's global definition plus- producing the same chemical rewards in the dog as chasing live prey. I have never heard anyone define prey drive as you have Corvus. What drive do you think herding dogs are in? Well, it's not a global definition. There are plenty of trainers who say play drive where others say prey drive. I think it would be nice if the terms weren't used interchangably. We've been through the whole herding dogs thing before. Can't be bothered going there again. If the result for the dog chemically and physiologically is the same- how can you argue that the dog is in a different drive? I still think level of prey drive, what is considered a prey object and threshold to prey drive are concepts that would answer all your questions corvus, rather than breaking down the drive into different ones because of differences in the above 3 things. I think you're missing a vital point, here. If I have interpreted Sapolsky correctly, what is important in drive rewards is not the reward but the anticipation of it. The appetitive state, as they say. The appetitive state is the same process no matter what the reward, although there would be variations in the details. The consumptive state is the bit in which the reward is given, and that is the bit where I think the differences lie. Intensity is just more of the same thing. I'm looking at different things. But we've been there before. I'll saunter off and talk about it with some other people that don't berrate me when they disagree with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Drive for prey. Not chasing, not pouncing, not stalking, not tugging, but for actual prey animals. Live prey animals. How they might go for the prey is variable, but not the soaring arousal levels at the very sight or smell of a prey animal. Dogs that instinctively know a prey animal when they see one. A dead animal is not prey; it's carrion. Food all the same, but completely different response. A ponderable - what drive do you think a gundog who is running down injured game is in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 corvus Just to clarify what you think (because otherwise I get lost in the length and wordiness of your post) - you think it is play drive unless there is a live animal involved? So no dogs are using prey drive apart from hunting dogs? Like sighthounds rabbit coursing? What about scenthounds? Or you don't really care about drive as you are more interested in the anticipation of the reward being what revves them up anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lillim Posted March 5, 2010 Author Share Posted March 5, 2010 In temperament testing, is prey drive not tested, and if so how? (not taking into account breed traits) You would test for prey drive by bringing the dog into the area where the 'prey' is, and look for various things. The dog's stance, its eyes, its ears, its tail, its movement, its tenseness, will all tell you if the dog is in prey drive or not. An inability to easily distract the dog from the prey can indicate a strong prey drive. Some dogs may 'shut down' during the test if they are weak-nerved. These dogs may show prey drive when in an environment they feel comfortable with. The test is just an indication, it isn't foolproof. But it is much better than not testing at all. yes, I saw that done on RSPCA Animal Rescue with an ex racing greyhound and a swf, what is the difference in prey drive body language as opposed what in my layman terms is a "doggy stand off" i.e two dogs staring intently at each other and very tense bodies? and the difference between circling prey and aggressive dogs circling. I also wondered if testing prey drive in puppies is less effective, due to the fact that they are learning and have limited attention spans? Also, in the case of my dog she never showed an intense interest in birds until she chased one, so I always presumed she had a low prey drive, but her intense reaction to birds has made me think differently. So, is it then possible that a dog can be temp tested and shows a low prey drive, but a situation occurs later in life, that increases a dogs prey drive totally, not just towards the "thing" in the situation? I hope that makes sense :D Some primates have hunting behaviours that could be compared to prey drive in dogs. I have to admit to being a bit of an animal planet freak and do remember some particularly vicious (well from my point of view) hunting footage of primates but I can't remember whether it was chimps or baboons, just that it was really really bloody and I think involved hunting other monkeys. I suppose we humans have modified prey drive anyway. I have seen footage of baboons hunting, all I can say is :D I am really enjoying reading everyones ideas and definitions of different drives, I am learning a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 There are plenty of trainers who say play drive where others say prey drive. Few links pls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lillim Posted March 5, 2010 Author Share Posted March 5, 2010 so I need to directing her attention and drive to "something better" when she goes into overdrive? K9: Yes, but when the dog goes into over drive, you would be able to re direct, so your better to teach foundations before. One problem could be that your dog has a genetic desire for more drive satisfaction than the life it has now is giving, which will mean she will be looking for drive satisfaction where ever she goes. So working in prey drive may help with that too. Ok, I think I know what I'm going to be researching this weekend :D I think this discussion is now way over my head, so of course I have queries: so in a very tiny nutshell can the 'chasing' part of prey drive drive be classed as an instinct, and once the dog is rewarded either with praise or the release of chemicals, this affirms to the dog that their actions are rewarding, hence increasing their prey drive for the particular 'thing' that started it and that chasing and catching moving objects is rewarding? what are the technical terms for different degrees of prey drive, is it just low, medium or high? K9: Thats a very basic idea yes. In temperament testing, is prey drive not tested, and if so how? (not taking into account breed traits) K9: yep it can be and depending on who is doing the testing, is done every time. Ok, I think I know what I'm going to be researching this weekend :D and by basic idea.. do you mean drawn in the dirt basic, or I'm on the right track to understanding prey drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lillim Posted March 5, 2010 Author Share Posted March 5, 2010 What difference in body language (in your experience) can you see in dogs training in food drive vs dogs training in what you define as play drive vs dogs working in what you define as prey drive? The problem with using body language in training scenarios to define anything is, IMO, that you've introduced a whole new factor that is quite powerful, that being giving your dog the anticipation that they will be able to earn a reward. The conditioning involved in that is really strong. I'm sure we've all seen our dogs get excited when we pick up a clicker or a ball or get some treats out of the freezer. To me, that's just anticipation for imminent rewards in general. Most dogs I have seen "training in drive" are in a general anticipatory state and the differences are in the reward delivery stage. There's not much chance to see this with food as it's gone in an instant. I couldn't say with play versus prey drive as I'm yet to see anyone working their dog in prey drive. I know someone who does (using the term the same way I do) and they keep promising to show me videos, but haven't yet. I can't wait to see it. Everyone tells me the dog is unlike any they have ever seen before. Others here have defined the basics of prey drive as the dog's instinct to catch and grab prey, what is your basic definition? Does the dog have to be chasing after a live prey item to be in (what you define as) prey drive? My basic definition is exactly as the term states. Drive for prey. Not chasing, not pouncing, not stalking, not tugging, but for actual prey animals. Live prey animals. How they might go for the prey is variable, but not the soaring arousal levels at the very sight or smell of a prey animal. Dogs that instinctively know a prey animal when they see one. A dead animal is not prey; it's carrion. Food all the same, but completely different response. but then how do you explain prey drive in dogs that have been soley bred for companionship for hundreds of year, should this not mean these dogs have zero prey drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 I wasn't berrating you corvus- i don't mean my post to come across as an attack on you, i am just trying to understand where you're coming from and the way you've currently explained it, i disagree with. Thats all. Gosh, i even used a smiley face at the end to try to convey tone :D I agree with you that the terms should not be used interchangably- i certainly don't mix them up like that and neither do the people i speak with. Who are the trainers that use them interchangably? I find the reward anticipation interesting- but don't really see how it fits in with dogs not being in prey drive unless a live animal is present? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 In temperament testing, is prey drive not tested, and if so how? (not taking into account breed traits) You would test for prey drive by bringing the dog into the area where the 'prey' is, and look for various things. The dog's stance, its eyes, its ears, its tail, its movement, its tenseness, will all tell you if the dog is in prey drive or not. An inability to easily distract the dog from the prey can indicate a strong prey drive. Some dogs may 'shut down' during the test if they are weak-nerved. These dogs may show prey drive when in an environment they feel comfortable with. The test is just an indication, it isn't foolproof. But it is much better than not testing at all. yes, I saw that done on RSPCA Animal Rescue with an ex racing greyhound and a swf, what is the difference in prey drive body language as opposed what in my layman terms is a "doggy stand off" i.e two dogs staring intently at each other and very tense bodies? and the difference between circling prey and aggressive dogs circling. Put very, very simply, a dog in prey drive will have its head lowered and pointed towards the prey, where as a doggy stand-off usually includes head up, high and proud and tippy-toes. There are a myriad of other tiny differences that add to the picture. I also wondered if testing prey drive in puppies is less effective, due to the fact that they are learning and have limited attention spans? Would never test a dog under eight months of age. Also, in the case of my dog she never showed an intense interest in birds until she chased one, so I always presumed she had a low prey drive, but her intense reaction to birds has made me think differently. So, is it then possible that a dog can be temp tested and shows a low prey drive, but a situation occurs later in life, that increases a dogs prey drive totally, not just towards the "thing" in the situation? I hope that makes sense :D Yes, some dogs will show prey drive towards some things and not others. Partly genetic - some dogs show a 'bird tendancy' rather than a 'rabbit tendancy' (based purely on the prey's movement) Dogs learn what is worth stirring up/looking at/chasing/stalking, and what is basically a waste of time and effort. All about what is fun and what is satisfying. Little unexpected things can whip up the prey drive too. High pitched squeaky sounds arouse a deep instinct, and many dogs soon learn by experience why squeaky=fun. Corvus, it isn't just harmless theory you spouting. Much effort has gone into educating people that live prey is not needed to induce a good level of prey drive. Your theory (if acted upon) would lead to cruelty. Not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 but then how do you explain prey drive in dogs that have been soley bred for companionship for hundreds of year, should this not mean these dogs have zero prey drive? Soley for companionship? Or for companionship and entertainingly despatching any mice, moths and cockroaches? :D People like to watch their puppies play, and while prey drive is reduced in some breeds, it is an inherent dog thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 (edited) For what it is worth I look at it like this. Prey drive is an instinct to pursue & capture (live) animals. Prey drive is broken into components: search, stalk, chase, bite, kill. I have seen Shine in the "Corvus definition" of prey drive. All the above components were used to kill a rat. When I train tricks with her, I often use the search, chase & bite component of prey drive. When I work sheep with her, I use the search, stalk & chase components. When I train her for agility, I use the search, chase & bite components. So is my dog prey driven? or is everything but killing the rat play? I think the reason people use the terms interchangeably is that dogs who tend to be capable of the "Corvus definition" of prey drive, are also generally the ones who are the most easy to reward using one of the above components of (everyone else's definition) of prey drive. I'm not really sure what the definition of play drive is? What I do know is that my dogs seem to put similar amounts of effort & energy into working for a tug or chasing a tennis ball as they will into going after something alive. They are different when working sheep...it is much more serious, but there are reasons for that. Edited March 5, 2010 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 corvusJust to clarify what you think (because otherwise I get lost in the length and wordiness of your post) - you think it is play drive unless there is a live animal involved? So no dogs are using prey drive apart from hunting dogs? Like sighthounds rabbit coursing? What about scenthounds? Sorry Kavik, this is pretty vital and I totally skipped it because I was thinking about it from a natural point of view rather than a training point of view. I'll try to explain succinctly for once, but I think it's gonna sound like I'm contradicting myself... When I said the prey is the bit that defines prey drive, I didn't mean that prey drive can only be satisfied by prey. It's almost the same as what everyone else on the board thinks. Say we have a dog that is very prey driven in the sense that it sees a bunny and sets about finding a way to get at it with the intent to kill it. Now say you have a toy and the dog goes through the same routine for the toy. That's still prey drive because it's the same behaviour sequence as for the bunny and the perceived reward is to catch and kill. Superficially, it looks the same as the dog with loads of drive for tug or balls that only triggers on a moving bunny, but the body language is different. The tail wags or at least isn't quite as stiff and rigid, the legs might pick up quite stiffly, the general movement might be a little less smooth and committed, although it's not in Erik! Critically, the dog that is playing includes you or another dog in the activities. I'm yet to see prey drive directed onto a toy, but I would love to! I keep looking through YouTube videos, but I'm told Balabanov might have an example. I dunno, maybe it's what Erik does when he takes his toy away and lies down to rip bits off it. Scenting is a seeking behaviour to me. I don't think that's prey drive, but I've not looked very hard at it and I've never had much to do with scent hounds. I think that most sighthounds are prey driven, including during lure coursing. Or you don't really care about drive as you are more interested in the anticipation of the reward being what revves them up anyway? For training, I'm way more interested in anticipation, but I wouldn't dream of ignoring what their ultimate reward is. I think that anticipation is always gonna be higher for things that a dog finds exceptionally rewarding. I don't know enough about gundogs to comment, Aidan. Sorry Cosmolo, that comment about berrating wasn't directed at you. I like your posts. :D You disagree without making it personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Corvus: I'm yet to see prey drive directed onto a toy, but I would love to! Go to the Greyhound racing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 When I said the prey is the bit that defines prey drive, I didn't mean that prey drive can only be satisfied by prey. It's almost the same as what everyone else on the board thinks. So you're saying that a dog could work in prey drive for a toy, but that you've never seen it and all the dogs you've seen working for a tug/toy/chasing anything that is an object have all been working in play drive, due to slightly differences in body language? How do you define play drive - what is the basic desire/instinct behind it? What do you consider a dog working for food (in a highly aroused state) doing? Are they working in food drive or play drive? Scenting is a seeking behaviour to me. I don't think that's prey drive, but I've not looked very hard at it and I've never had much to do with scent hounds. If you've seen a scent hound working a scent, it's clear they are in drive - if it's not prey drive, then what drive would they be working in? I think that most sighthounds are prey driven, including during lure coursing. Then there is an example of a prey drive directed to a toy. You disagree without making it personal. You're one to talk :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lillim Posted March 5, 2010 Author Share Posted March 5, 2010 Put very, very simply, a dog in prey drive will have its head lowered and pointed towards the prey, where as a doggy stand-off usually includes head up, high and proud and tippy-toes. There are a myriad of other tiny differences that add to the picture. myriad of tiny differences like.......? but then how do you explain prey drive in dogs that have been soley bred for companionship for hundreds of year, should this not mean these dogs have zero prey drive? Soley for companionship? Or for companionship and entertainingly despatching any mice, moths and cockroaches? :D People like to watch their puppies play, and while prey drive is reduced in some breeds, it is an inherent dog thing. but what about pugs? I though that they were from the beginning bred to be lap dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 but what about pugs? I though that they were from the beginning bred to be lap dogs? They are still dogs. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lillim Posted March 5, 2010 Author Share Posted March 5, 2010 but what about pugs? I though that they were from the beginning bred to be lap dogs? They are still dogs. :D I dunno.... ok I concede I asked a really dumb question without thinking it through :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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