Prey Drive - Way To Test?

[Aidan]

I don't know enough about gundogs to comment, Aidan.

Fair enough :D If you are interested this clip shows spaniels flushing, scenting, retrieving and chasing an injured "runner":

Warning, the video does show live game being shot which some may find distressing.

About 5min in you can see a dog chase a "runner", I would say his body language is different to the dogs picking up dead game but only because he has to run it down.

[Greytmate]

Put very, very simply, a dog in prey drive will have its head lowered and pointed towards the prey, where as a doggy stand-off usually includes head up, high and proud and tippy-toes. There are a myriad of other tiny differences that add to the picture.

myriad of tiny differences like.......?

The 'circling' you mention. Any stalking (inspired by prey drive) I have seen couldn't be described as circling. It is fairly direct.

Feet hard into the ground in prey drive, No hint of the scratchy, scenty, pissy OTT (literally) behaviour of a dog trying to assert its dominance over other dogs. Prey drive is heavy and grounded. Elbows bent. Low. Tail not up so much.

A dog in full prey drive is much harder to distract than a dog asserting dominance. Much further removed.

There are similarities, and it is good to know the differences. :D

but what about pugs? I though that they were from the beginning bred to be lap dogs?

Pugs in general have a low prey drive. But they are still dogs, and owners have always valued the way that dogs play like dogs. :D

[Greytmate]

Dogs in prey drive do not tend to growl.

[poodlefan]

but what about pugs? I though that they were from the beginning bred to be lap dogs?

They are still dogs. :D

I dunno.... ok I concede I asked a really dumb question without thinking it through :D

There's not a real downside to having a lap dog with some prey drive. A pug that was a good mouser would probably be a good thing! Many toy breeds display that talent. While we've modified the appearance of many breeds significantly from the original, most drives are still there to some degree.

Now a livestock guardian with high prey drive? Very different kettle of fish.

[lillim]

Put very, very simply, a dog in prey drive will have its head lowered and pointed towards the prey, where as a doggy stand-off usually includes head up, high and proud and tippy-toes. There are a myriad of other tiny differences that add to the picture.

myriad of tiny differences like.......?

The 'circling' you mention. Any stalking (inspired by prey drive) I have seen couldn't be described as circling. It is fairly direct.

Feet hard into the ground in prey drive, No hint of the scratchy, scenty, pissy OTT (literally) behaviour of a dog trying to assert its dominance over other dogs. Prey drive is heavy and grounded. Elbows bent. Low. Tail not up so much.

A dog in full prey drive is much harder to distract than a dog asserting dominance. Much further removed.

There are similarities, and it is good to know the differences.

but what about pugs? I though that they were from the beginning bred to be lap dogs?

Pugs in general have a low prey drive. But they are still dogs, and owners have always valued the way that dogs play like dogs.

ok, so what about heckles, I've always understood that heckles mean a dog feels threatened, but reading a thread a little while ago, someone said that heckles also present when the dog is "aroused", while I'm presuming that heckles are not present in a dog in prey drive, is it possible?

[Greytmate]

You may get a few bristles rather than full hackles-up, but piloerection isn't a defining characteristic of a dog in prey drive.

The dog in prey drive has an optimistic demeanor, not a defensive one.

[lillim]

You may get a few bristles rather than full hackles-up, but piloerection isn't a defining characteristic of a dog in prey drive.

The dog in prey drive has an optimistic demeanor, not a defensive one.

ok, so what about tail, still, tense, wagging?

[corvus]

Now a livestock guardian with high prey drive? Very different kettle of fish.

Hold on, though....

While it would be very very bad for a LG to be killing the livestock, they were pretty much bred to be out there on their own all the time. If my LG history is correct, they were often expected to feed themselves on small game. At least, as I interpreted it some breeds were self-sufficient.

Aidan, the thing that really stood out to me with the gundogs was their tails going a million miles an hour. I've never seen a hunting dog wagging their tail. Sometimes when they are seeking back and forth looking for prey, but not when they have it in their sights. Oh, maybe I've seen a rat terrier do a little tail wiggle in a video, but nothing like those happy gundogs. So I've been kind of using the stillness of the tail as an indicator. Has anyone else ever seen a dog going after prey wagging their tail like that?

I think Vickie summed up my current thoughts on this topic pretty well. And I wholly agree with Greytmate's descriptions of dogs in prey drive.

[Greytmate]

You may get a few bristles rather than full hackles-up, but piloerection isn't a defining characteristic of a dog in prey drive.

The dog in prey drive has an optimistic demeanor, not a defensive one.

ok, so what about tail, still, tense, wagging?

That can vary a bit. Stiff, slow wagging, or nothing much at all. Neither too high or too low.

[Aidan]

Has anyone else ever seen a dog going after prey wagging their tail like that?

I suspect the wagging tail has been bred in, selecting for "happy, willing workers" or something like that. It would be quite a disadvantage in other circumstances. It's probably quite helpful in flushing prey, I don't really know though.

[huski]

Has anyone else ever seen a dog going after prey wagging their tail like that?

I suspect the wagging tail has been bred in, selecting for "happy, willing workers" or something like that. It would be quite a disadvantage in other circumstances. It's probably quite helpful in flushing prey, I don't really know though.

That's interesting Aidan, anyone who has seen a beagle on a scent will know their tail goes a million miles an hour the entire time. All beags have at least a white tip on their tail so that they are easy to spot from a distance when scenting. I don't know if that's the same for the spaniels in the video you posted though.

My understanding is that scenting is part of prey drive.

Edited March 6, 2010 by huski

[Greytmate]

The beagle tail is supposed to be a flag. :D

The greyhound tail may not do much, or may wag slowly from side to side . Happy, confident, anticipation of what they think will happen next.

[Erny]

That's interesting Aidan, anyone who has seen a beagle on a scent will know their tail goes a million miles an hour the entire time.

But are they in drive "peak" ?

[huski]

That's interesting Aidan, anyone who has seen a beagle on a scent will know their tail goes a million miles an hour the entire time.

But are they in drive "peak" ?

I am far from an expert, but when I see Daisy really get on a scent (different to just having a sniff around) I think she is in drive... you can barely physically pull her off it; she will walk over bindis on the ground like they aren't even there, that at any other time would cause her to stop and pick her paws up and refuse to walk any further; she blocks out everything around her except for the scent she is on; you could shove food under her nose and she won't even notice it's there; even picking her up so her nose is off the ground she still leans her neck as far forward as possible trying to scent... if you consider a dog in drive peak is using the lower cortex of their brain, the medulla, the part responsible for primal instincts, I would definitely say that when she is really switched onto a scent like this that she is in drive peak. At least that's how I see it :D

[Aidan]

All beags have at least a white tip on their tail so that they are easy to spot from a distance when scenting. I don't know if that's the same for the spaniels in the video you posted though.

No, because Spaniels come back :D

[huski]

All beags have at least a white tip on their tail so that they are easy to spot from a distance when scenting. I don't know if that's the same for the spaniels in the video you posted though.

No, because Spaniels come back ;)

Touche :D

[Quickasyoucan]

My crossbreed dog, bit of stafford, bit of BC bit of who knows what will wag his tail fiercely when playing search games. I always saw that as being an indication of some sort of drive. He doesn't do it when chasing, but that's probably more of a physiological thing, ie you can't go full pelt and wag your tail at the same time.

There is an intensity in his searching and accompanied tail wagging that suggests drive to me anyway.

Maybe he's a well camouflaged beagle :D

[huski]

Maybe he's a well camouflaged beagle :D

Well that depends - is he incredibly stubborn and annoying? Cos if he is, definitely a beagle

[Quickasyoucan]

Maybe he's a well camouflaged beagle :D

Well that depends - is he incredibly stubborn and annoying? Cos if he is, definitely a beagle

yeah that's him. who needs a bitsa test anyway ;)

[corvus]

The way that play versus predatory behaviour is treated in the literature is basically "hardly at all". If it involves live animals, it's considered predatory aggression, but if it doesn't, it's considered play. That's not to say there aren't heaps of crossovers, because it's broadly recognised that the purpose of play is to practice for real life events including social harmony, intraspecific competition (fights), predatory behaviour and predator-avoidance behaviour if you're a prey animal. Even sex, as there can be lots of mounting behaviour incorporated into play. It gets hairy because so many behaviours from other contexts pop up in play. One method of differentiating is to look at the sequence of the behaviours and the context in which they are performed. So if you get a dog that chases, then stalks, you would consider that play as the behaviours are out of sequence. But there are other criteria as well, such as whether the behaviour is performed for a discernable reason, or whether it is accompanied by exaggerated movements, whether it is energetically expensive or awkward, and the likelihood of a final consummatory act.

There have been papers written on "object play", which includes tug and chasing balls. There is no question whether it is play or predatory behaviour. It is treated as play for the above reasons.

As far as scenting is concerned, I guess it falls under the same banner as herding. Herding is not really predatory behaviour and not play behaviour. It's modified predatory behaviour. I think it should be called just that. Seeking behaviour is, according to Panksepp at least, highly rewarding in its own right, whether connected to predatory behaviour or not. Scenting can exist as part of a predatory behaviour sequence, but can also occur in isolation as an exploratory behaviour. I'm inclined to forget about drive all together and call it scenting. Seeking drive, perhaps, if you must. Unless it's followed by a few other hunting behaviours. Someone once asked me what dog they should get considering they had pet rabbits. They wanted a Beagle. I told them that was not a good idea. They got one anyway and it tried to kill their rabbit. Prey-driven dog. It certainly didn't mess around scenting first.