Prey Drive - Way To Test?

[lillim]

I'm not quite sure if this is a dumb question or not, but is there a test to determine a dog's prey drive?

[huski]

I am no expert but I guess it depends on how you define prey drive. I think of it as the dog's desire to chase and grab things, so a good way to get an idea of whether or not your dog is prey driven is to see if it likes to chase toys, tug with you, run after "prey items" that are moving, gets excited when he hears a squeaky toy etc.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: No its far from a dumb question, prey drive is the dogs desire to chase and capture, all dogs have a degree of prey drive, but some wont disply this for various reasons.

How much you need is dependant on what you want to achieve. This article will help.

Understanding drives

[lillim]

ok, I'll give an example to explain what I'm trying to ascertain, my dog loves to chase and catch toys, enjoys squeaky toys and like to chase skinks and birds, using the command "leave it" works 99% of the time, for example she discovered a baby blue tongue and followed it, tail wagging and sniffing, but she did not make contact and obeyed me when I told her to leave it, she does this with most live things we come across wether they be moving fast or slow. We did though have a baby magpie in the garden that could not fly and she chased it, in doing so her demeamour changed, she became highly excitable and did not listen to me and snapped at the bird, I ended up tackling her then having to drag her into the house, does this mean that when is is playing with toys she is in prey drive or when she chased the baby magpie is she in prey drive, or is this something totally different? or is are both situations prey drive, just different degrees?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Yes these are different degrees of prey drive, some the dog knows are mildly stimulating whilst others drive her over the top, you w=dont have to use drive to control this reponse but it is one way to re direct it.

[ness]

Just on this -

Lets take two hypothetical dogs -

Dog A

- Shows strong prey drive towards inappropriate items - cars/trucks/bikes/birds anything that moves (would require significant correction to stop a chase)

- Same dog however has showed very little interest in chasing balls/frisbees/tugs

Dog B

- Shows prey drive towards appropriate items - balls/tugs/stock (but in an appropriate context)

- Dog B has however shown very little interest in chasing in appropriate objects

So my question is this - which dog has the higher prey drive or is it possibly a case of Dog B having been given ample appropriate items to direct there prey drive onto whereas Dog A was either encouraged inappropriately to chase anything that moved or not given an appropriate outlet in the form of toys/frisbees at a young enough age.

[corvus]

Supposedly you can test it in a puppy by rolling a paper ball along the ground and guaging the response. A very prey driven puppy will immediately race after it, grab it, and rip it up. A moderately prey driven puppy might chase it and pick it up and then play with it. A puppy with low prey drive would have little interest in it.

In ness' example, I would want to know more specifics about the body language of each dog. I swear you can tell intention in the body language. I've exposed a few different dogs to my rabbits and you can tell in an instant if there's any hope for the relationship and how much. I would trust my mum's intensely toy obsessed dog with my rabbits as long as they weren't able to run. She would trigger if she saw a running bunny zoom past her, and she's big enough that she would be likely to hurt them if she caught them whether she meant to or not. On the other hand, my mum's Vallhund can't be in the same room as my rabbits. He tries to bust into their cages. He doesn't play chase games, and rarely plays tug, but he'll snap a lizard up before you realise it's even there. My Vallhund is a tugging fiend and loves to chase things, but he's thoroughly trusted in a room with caged rabbits. He ignores them. To me, a dog that chases is not necessarily prey driven, and a dog that tugs is not necessarily prey driven. A prey driven dog is one that knows rabbits are for biting even when they've never laid eyes on a rabbit before.

[Steve K9Pro]

Just on this -

Lets take two hypothetical dogs -

Dog A

- Shows strong prey drive towards inappropriate items - cars/trucks/bikes/birds anything that moves (would require significant correction to stop a chase)

- Same dog however has showed very little interest in chasing balls/frisbees/tugs

Dog B

- Shows prey drive towards appropriate items - balls/tugs/stock (but in an appropriate context)

- Dog B has however shown very little interest in chasing in appropriate objects

So my question is this - which dog has the higher prey drive

K9: None of these hypotheticals indicate any level of drive they just identify different triggers based on reward history, yes?

or is it possibly a case of Dog B having been given ample appropriate items to direct there prey drive onto whereas Dog A was either encouraged inappropriately to chase anything that moved or not given an appropriate outlet in the form of toys/frisbees at a young enough age.

K9: yes that is more likely.

[Steve K9Pro]

Supposedly you can test it in a puppy by rolling a paper ball along the ground and guaging the response. A very prey driven puppy will immediately race after it, grab it, and rip it up. A moderately prey driven puppy might chase it and pick it up and then play with it. A puppy with low prey drive would have little interest in it.

K9: A very driven pup with weak nerves will not chase it but run from it, so it has prey drive that is being masked by fear.

In ness' example, I would want to know more specifics about the body language of each dog. I swear you can tell intention in the body language. I've exposed a few different dogs to my rabbits and you can tell in an instant if there's any hope for the relationship and how much. I would trust my mum's intensely toy obsessed dog with my rabbits as long as they weren't able to run. She would trigger if she saw a running bunny zoom past her, and she's big enough that she would be likely to hurt them if she caught them whether she meant to or not.

K9: This simply means the dog triggers on moving prey, it is inexperienced to the extent that it does not belioeve it can generate avoidance in the prey, so it reacts rather than acts.

In Ness example, the level of drive can not be determined by these examples, regardless of body language.

On the other hand, my mum's Vallhund can't be in the same room as my rabbits. He tries to bust into their cages. He doesn't play chase games, and rarely plays tug, but he'll snap a lizard up before you realise it's even there.

K9: Reward history over genetics.

My Vallhund is a tugging fiend and loves to chase things, but he's thoroughly trusted in a room with caged rabbits. He ignores them. To me, a dog that chases is not necessarily prey driven, and a dog that tugs is not necessarily prey driven. A prey driven dog is one that knows rabbits are for biting even when they've never laid eyes on a rabbit before.

K9: reward history over nerves.

[ness]

Ok maybe I have missed something:

K9 wrote: prey drive is the dogs desire to chase and capture....

Is it the capture element of the above examples that is missing which is preventing the example from being prey drive. Obviously a dog running after a moving object the first time isn't doing so because its found it rewarding. Possibly subsequent times yes but why is it one dog will chase a moving object that very first time whereas another different dog doesn't show the same tendency. I can understand why exposure and opportunity to practice a desirable/or undesirable response to a stimulus may shift the outcome.

So is a dog that is not highly motion reactive, necessarily high in prey drive .

[corvus]

K9: This simply means the dog triggers on moving prey, it is inexperienced to the extent that it does not belioeve it can generate avoidance in the prey, so it reacts rather than acts.

That's an interesting interpretation with shades of Behan. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean the dog is chasing senselessly because it hasn't learnt there's anything more to chasing?

In Ness example, the level of drive can not be determined by these examples, regardless of body language.

Are you saying drive is static?

On the other hand, my mum's Vallhund can't be in the same room as my rabbits. He tries to bust into their cages. He doesn't play chase games, and rarely plays tug, but he'll snap a lizard up before you realise it's even there.

K9: Reward history over genetics.

Butbutbut, it's not like he's never played games or doesn't like them. He's had the same upbringing that the toy nut has. He loves tug, but only once in a blue moon, and it's absolutely a social reward rather than a predatory reward. He's like the Salukis I know that won't chase lures ever since some helpful soul showed them what a lure was. It's not that they weren't rewarded for chasing lures before, but they don't see the sense in chasing something that isn't alive, exactly as the vallhund doesn't chase animals he doesn't think he can catch. The drive reward has gone out of it. I strongly believe that this actually is genetics. Some sighthounds won't chase a lure because it's not alive, but many obviously do. The person I know with the two Salukis who won't has a third that doesn't care that the lure is not a live animal. The two that don't chase lures come from a hunting line and the one that does comes from a show line. Interesting, no?

My Vallhund is a tugging fiend and loves to chase things, but he's thoroughly trusted in a room with caged rabbits. He ignores them. To me, a dog that chases is not necessarily prey driven, and a dog that tugs is not necessarily prey driven. A prey driven dog is one that knows rabbits are for biting even when they've never laid eyes on a rabbit before.

K9: reward history over nerves.

Care to expand? What do nerves have to do with whether a dog sees a rabbit and wants to kill it or barely notices it until it runs and then locks on for a chase?

The way I see it, the reason why drive rewards are so rewarding is because it makes good evolutionary sense that activities that are closely tied to survival are inherently highly rewarding. Predatory behaviours often result in food and play behaviours have a social aspect and a rehearsal aspect, both of which are pretty important for a social predator. I think we have to consider whether a dog actually finds classic drive rewards to be drive rewards, and exactly what drive is being satisfied. Maybe some dogs like the predatory rehearsal aspect of play, whereas others might find the social aspect to be particularly rewarding. Ideally, you want them nice and intertwined to have a dog that doubly enjoys play like tug, which is so widely useful in training. When I watch my low drive dog, he is all about the social side of play and has very little interest in the rehearsal side. He likes to run with other dogs and shoulder them and mouth them and wrestle with them. I swear his favourite bit is where he gets tripped over and goes flying. Sometimes if he hasn't been tripped in a while he just throws himself on the ground as if he has. He will play tug and chase games sometimes, but as soon as he gets particularly aroused he wants to wrestle. Maybe that's why he likes to play with puppets so much.

Erik is more about rehearsal, but as far as he's concerned, rehearsal is no fun without company. It makes it very easy to get him drivey. He loves tug and loves chasing, but wants to do it with someone. I'm happy to oblige and build training games into it!

For my mum's little hunter, he has little interest in play at all. When he does get into play, it's quite social, although he likes tug. He won't hang off a tug toy and swing around on it like Erik does, preferring to focus on engaging someone. He's surprisingly gentle with tug compared to Erik.

Just my thoughts on it.

[ness]

So is it right to equate prey drive with something instinctual to a certain level - first time dog takes off after a moving object (dog in this case being a herding breed since that is what I am most familiar with) surely its not acting on a previous "rewarding experience" so there must be a trigger to this behavior.

Is there a greying between what is happening as a result of something being a rewarding experience and what is prey drive?

And how would you classify a herding dog working stock which I thought was always a modified prey drive?

Edited March 2, 2010 by ness

[Steve K9Pro]

That's an interesting interpretation with shades of Behan. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean the dog is chasing senselessly because it hasn't learnt there's anything more to chasing?

K9: The dog chases because it is instictually driven to chase.

C: In Ness example, the level of drive can not be determined by these examples, regardless of body language

Are you saying drive is static?

K9: No I am saying the level of drive cannot be determined from the examples given, thats pretty clear from the answer I gave.

On the other hand, my mum's Vallhund can't be in the same room as my rabbits. He tries to bust into their cages. He doesn't play chase games, and rarely plays tug, but he'll snap a lizard up before you realise it's even there.

K9: Reward history over genetics.

Butbutbut, it's not like he's never played games or doesn't like them. He's had the same upbringing that the toy nut has. He loves tug, but only once in a blue moon,

K9: Then he doesnt love it does he.

and it's absolutely a social reward rather than a predatory reward

K9: Then were not talking about prey drive are we.

He's like the Salukis I know that won't chase lures ever since some helpful soul showed them what a lure was. It's not that they weren't rewarded for chasing lures before, but they don't see the sense in chasing something that isn't alive, exactly as the vallhund doesn't chase animals he doesn't think he can catch. The drive reward has gone out of it. I strongly believe that this actually is genetics.

K9: If it was genetics, how would the drive reward go out if it? Wouldnt it not have been there in the firsdt place if it were a genetic trait?

Some sighthounds won't chase a lure because it's not alive, but many obviously do.

K9: That is your interpretation of what is happening, lets not confuse that with fact.

The person I know with the two Salukis who won't has a third that doesn't care that the lure is not a live animal. The two that don't chase lures come from a hunting line and the one that does comes from a show line. Interesting, no?

K9: Interesting how?, I have seen Kelpies that wont herd sheep and ones that do, they are all Kelpies...

Care to expand? What do nerves have to do with whether a dog sees a rabbit and wants to kill it or barely notices it until it runs and then locks on for a chase?

K9: Are you seriously asking this?

The way I see it, the reason why drive rewards are so rewarding is because it makes good evolutionary sense that activities that are closely tied to survival are inherently highly rewarding. Predatory behaviours often result in food and play behaviours have a social aspect and a rehearsal aspect, both of which are pretty important for a social predator.

K9: I think you like to create theories in your head and then go about believing them. There are some sections here that you close and others your miles off.

I think we have to consider whether a dog actually finds classic drive rewards to be drive rewards, and exactly what drive is being satisfied.

K9: why do we need to consider that, just train it.

Maybe some dogs like the predatory rehearsal aspect of play, whereas others might find the social aspect to be particularly rewarding. Ideally, you want them nice and intertwined to have a dog that doubly enjoys play like tug, which is so widely useful in training.

K9: Oh thanks I will be sure to write that down somewhere...

Erik is more about rehearsal, but as far as he's concerned, rehearsal is no fun without company. It makes it very easy to get him drivey. He loves tug and loves chasing, but wants to do it with someone. I'm happy to oblige and build training games into it!

K9: yep sure you are, I am sure you will get great results obliging him.

[Steve K9Pro]

So is it right to equate prey drive with something instinctual to a certain level - first time dog takes off after a moving object (dog in this case being a herding breed since that is what I am most familiar with) surely its not acting on a previous "rewarding experience" so there must be a trigger to this behavior.

K9: Yeah it is completely instinctual.

Is there a greying between what is happening as a result of something being a rewarding experience and what is prey drive?

K9: The behaviour is triggered in the dogs with the prey instinct that is still strong, once the behaviour has been completed the dog experiences chemical reward, the dog wants to repeat this over and over again.

And how would you classify a herding dog working stock which I thought was always a modified prey drive?

K9: Yes it is, any working dog be it herder or Schutzhund (these days) is modified prey drive, different action, same reward experience.

Example of using instinctual drive and reshaping is Huskis Daisy, nose dominant Beagle that experienced reward by scenting, like many of the breed do. That has been modified so the same reward experience is felt, just working in an obedience routine.

[ness]

Thanks for the responses to my questions Steve - so I am not so far off track or as confused as I thought I was. Enough theory for me.

Edited March 2, 2010 by ness

[lillim]

K9: Yes these are different degrees of prey drive, some the dog knows are mildly stimulating whilst others drive her over the top, you w=dont have to use drive to control this reponse but it is one way to re direct it.

so I need to directing her attention and drive to "something better" when she goes into overdrive?

I think this discussion is now way over my head, so of course I have queries:

so in a very tiny nutshell can the 'chasing' part of prey drive drive be classed as an instinct, and once the dog is rewarded either with praise or the release of chemicals, this affirms to the dog that their actions are rewarding, hence increasing their prey drive for the particular 'thing' that started it and that chasing and catching moving objects is rewarding?

what are the technical terms for different degrees of prey drive, is it just low, medium or high?

In temperament testing, is prey drive not tested, and if so how? (not taking into account breed traits)

[corvus]

K9: The dog chases because it is instictually driven to chase.

Then what's this talk of inexperience and avoidance in the object of the chase about? We all know dogs chase because it's instinctual.

C: In Ness example, the level of drive can not be determined by these examples, regardless of body language

Are you saying drive is static?

K9: No I am saying the level of drive cannot be determined from the examples given, thats pretty clear from the answer I gave.

I'm just trying to understand why you think the level of drive can not be determined by body language. You said earlier that it may be masked by fear or whatever, but it may also be built and encouraged artificially, so at what point can you determine drive level? At what point do you say you are seeing a true representation of a dog's natural drive level?

and it's absolutely a social reward rather than a predatory reward

K9: Then were not talking about prey drive are we.

That was my point. The way that prey drive is expressed isn't set in stone or the same for every dog.

K9: If it was genetics, how would the drive reward go out if it? Wouldnt it not have been there in the firsdt place if it were a genetic trait?

The drive reward "goes out of it" from our perspective only. The dog is genetically geared to get drive satisfaction from going for live animals only. When the dog discovers the lure is not a live animal, then lure coursing is no longer a rewarding activity on any level and they can't be convinced to participate in it.

Care to expand? What do nerves have to do with whether a dog sees a rabbit and wants to kill it or barely notices it until it runs and then locks on for a chase?

K9: Are you seriously asking this?

Oh yes, even if you're going to be rude about it. Are you going to answer it?

The way I see it, the reason why drive rewards are so rewarding is because it makes good evolutionary sense that activities that are closely tied to survival are inherently highly rewarding. Predatory behaviours often result in food and play behaviours have a social aspect and a rehearsal aspect, both of which are pretty important for a social predator.

K9: I think you like to create theories in your head and then go about believing them. There are some sections here that you close and others your miles off.

Funny, I have said the same thing about some professional dog trainers. At least I read a few books and papers and looked at some dogs through fresh eyes first. I'm pretty confident on the above as it came right out of a text book. Not even my ideas.

[Steve K9Pro]

so I need to directing her attention and drive to "something better" when she goes into overdrive?

K9: Yes, but when the dog goes into over drive, you would be able to re direct, so your better to teach foundations before. One problem could be that your dog has a genetic desire for more drive satisfaction than the life it has now is giving, which will mean she will be looking for drive satisfaction where ever she goes. So working in prey drive may help with that too.

I think this discussion is now way over my head, so of course I have queries:

so in a very tiny nutshell can the 'chasing' part of prey drive drive be classed as an instinct, and once the dog is rewarded either with praise or the release of chemicals, this affirms to the dog that their actions are rewarding, hence increasing their prey drive for the particular 'thing' that started it and that chasing and catching moving objects is rewarding?

what are the technical terms for different degrees of prey drive, is it just low, medium or high?

K9: Thats a very basic idea yes.

In temperament testing, is prey drive not tested, and if so how? (not taking into account breed traits)

K9: yep it can be and depending on who is doing the testing, is done every time.

[Steve K9Pro]

C: I'm just trying to understand why you think the level of drive can not be determined by body language.

K9: Because it cannot be done with any degree of accuracy, drive peak is a dynamic action, drive itself is a number of sequences rolled into one, dynamics are not captured in still shots, it is like trying to take a still shot of sound.

But hey maybe this will help, why dont you go back and look in the thread you started called "Images of dogs in drive".

In that thread, people sent you pictures they took of their dogs in drive, you could not see drive in many of them.

C: You said earlier that it may be masked by fear or whatever, but it may also be built and encouraged artificially, so at what point can you determine drive level?

K9: Are you asking me or telling me... You seem to know, stick with that.

C: At what point do you say you are seeing a true representation of a dog's natural drive level?

K9: Once a dogs drive has been used as a motivational engine to achieve an action, you may never see its raw natural drive again, its is a modified version from then on in.

C: and it's absolutely a social reward rather than a predatory reward

K9: Then were not talking about prey drive are we

C: Oh yes, even if you're going to be rude about it. Are you going to answer it?

K9: No I am not going to answer it, you are here making statements as if they are facts but dont know what impact nerves have on drive, this is very basic information, you need to do a course that involves some practical and it will be one of the first things taught to you (if you will listen)

Coming on here wanting to spar with me doesnt get you my help.

K9: I think you like to create theories in your head and then go about believing them. There are some sections here that you close and others your miles off.

Funny, I have said the same thing about some professional dog trainers.

K9: I know what you have said, and of course you have said that, you know better than all of us.

C: At least I read a few books and papers

K9: that would have been written by people that actually worked with dogs, not read about them. In those books though, there would have been still images I am guessing, we know your interpretation of what you see in a still image leaves a lot to be desired.

C: and looked at some dogs through fresh eyes first.

K9: If by fresh eyes you mean novice, did you, or did you look through the eyes of someone who read about it and now thinks they know it.

I'm pretty confident on the above as it came right out of a text book. Not even my ideas.

K9: Perhaps you need to expand your own ideas rather than just copy and paste from text books. Why dont you go and read the book written by the Monks of New Skete, in there it details how to perform an Alpha roll and that it is an essential behaviour therapy to restructure packs.

Thats a book, studied by many, is it right? hmm go try and see. I have a dog coming this afternoon, nice big fellow that your welcome to come Alpha role, we will see whose pack gets restructured.

When you read a book, your getting the authors opinion, just like reading here. Just because you like the author or like the theory, doesnt make it right.

It was written the earth was also flat, times change, research and development (field testing) in dog behaviour gets rewritten as new information is uncovered and dogs evolve.

In many of your posts, you refer to your two dogs and your mums dogs, in others you refer to other species and when referring to the species we discuss here, dogs, you tend to lump them all into one category and sometimes various species into one category. When I look at Zebra and dog, I dont see species, I see millions of animals, no two dogs, or Zebras, or Wild Hares, are the same.

[corvus]

C: I'm just trying to understand why you think the level of drive can not be determined by body language.

K9: Because it cannot be done with any degree of accuracy, drive peak is a dynamic action, drive itself is a number of sequences rolled into one, dynamics are not captured in still shots, it is like trying to take a still shot of sound.

Ah, I didn't think we were talking about a still shot. Ness gave a more detailed example. I said I'd want to know more about the body language, you said you can't tell even from body language, and now you say that's because it's too dynamic for a still shot. I agree, but I was assuming you would witness the body language of the dog while they were chasing things or whatever other typically drivey activities they are or are not doing. Wouldn't you be able to tell if you saw it?

C: You said earlier that it may be masked by fear or whatever, but it may also be built and encouraged artificially, so at what point can you determine drive level?

K9: Are you asking me or telling me... You seem to know, stick with that.

Asking. I'm trying to understand exactly what you're talking about when you speak of a dog's level of drive. Its level of drive in relation to what? Natural level? Artificial level? The level during one or another specific activity? Are we talking a general level of drive or are we talking the level of drive a dog has for particular activities at particular times?

K9: No I am not going to answer it, you are here making statements as if they are facts but dont know what impact nerves have on drive, this is very basic information, you need to do a course that involves some practical and it will be one of the first things taught to you (if you will listen)

What, are you five? If you don't want to share basic information, then what are you doing on a discussion forum? I'll be charitable and assume we are once again perhaps talking about different things.

Schutzhund trainers like to talk about "nerve" as something that describes how much pressure a dog will work through. It's usually used in conjunction with "drive" as a measure of a dog's overall working ability, as a dog with plenty of drive might have its drive evaporate the moment a little pressure is introduced. Are we on the same page?

My question was, how does "nerve" by the above meaning have anything to do with whether a dog sees a stationary, caged rabbit and wants to kill it, or whether it sees a stationary, caged rabbit and is merely moderately interested? Where's the pressure in this situation? The drive might change depending on what the rabbit is doing, but any pressure is constant, so changes in drive must be a result of the stimulus rather than a dog's nerve.

My original example was dogs that have loads of drive for playing chase games not responding to a rabbit unless it runs. As opposed to dogs that go into drive the instant they become aware of a rabbit in the vicinity, whether it's moving or not. The pressure is still constant, so the controlling factor must be the stimulus (bunny). My point was a dog that doesn't know what to do with a bunny on sight/smell is not a very prey driven dog in my books.

If you don't want to talk about it no one's gonna make you. I'll just go ask some people that have done your course. And some of the Schutzhund trainers I know.

Coming on here wanting to spar with me doesnt get you my help.

Are we sparring? In all honesty, I thought we were having an adult discussion. You'll know when I'm sparring. ;)

K9: Perhaps you need to expand your own ideas rather than just copy and paste from text books.

Thanks for the tip. I think I mentioned before that I'm starting a PhD on dog behaviour at the end of the month, so yeah, I'm doing just that.

In many of your posts, you refer to your two dogs and your mums dogs, in others you refer to other species and when referring to the species we discuss here, dogs, you tend to lump them all into one category and sometimes various species into one category. When I look at Zebra and dog, I dont see species, I see millions of animals, no two dogs, or Zebras, or Wild Hares, are the same.

Did you know most of what we know about neurobiology, biochemistry and learning theory comes from studies of rats? They added primates and dogs once they got going on something. Eventually, they added humans where they could without being cruel (it's okay to be cruel to animals, apparently). Most of it is pretty comparable in mammals, and behaviour follows much the same rules in any species that has a brain. The differences are in the details. So when I'm talking differences I compare species or individuals depending on what differences I'm discussing, and when I'm talking general concepts I treat all species as much the same. It seems to aggravate dog people, but this is how I was taught. It's a nested approach that more or less follows taxonomy. Individual-species-genus-family-order. It doesn't get much broader than order, though.