Schnauzernut Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I thought I had a pretty reasonable understanding of basic colour genetics in the mini schnauzer, but my latest litter has thrown a spanner in the works! Mum and dad are both black dogs. That means they are each carrying at least 1 black gene. Now I have a litter with 5 black, 1 pepper and salt, and 1 black and silver puppy. Because black and silver is recessive to both pepper and salt, and black, a black and silver dog must have 2 black and silver genes, right? By the laws of genetics, it must have got one from mum and one from dad. So that means mum and dad are each carrying one black gene and one black and silver gene. So where did the pepper and salt puppy come from ??? There is absolutely no chance that any other dog could have been involved in this mating... we live on a farm! And our dogs are always near us. I just can't work this out... Does anyone have any ideas or maybe I have missed something obvious here???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I don't know but what I do know is that genes do not always work to the chart or book. I bred 2 black poodles with 4 generations of black on each side & the brown came out from way back. Those recessive genes are very sneaky. Theory is great but in practise all sorts can come out & does, usually when we do not want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundoglover Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 (edited) Black & Silver genotype: atatkkEE - homozygous for tan points, non-black and normal extension. Will be black-and-silver (this and atatkkEe are actually the only genotypes which will result in a black-and-silver, making it just about the most recessive Schnauzer colour). Salt & Pepper genotypes: awawkkEE - homozygous for non-black and normal extension, homozygous for wolf grey and tan points. Will be salt-and-pepper awatkkEE - homozygous for non-black and normal extension, heterozygous for wolf grey and tan points. Will be salt-and-pepper (wolf grey is more dominant than tan points). Black (carrying Salt&Pepper and Black&Silver) genotypes: awawKkEE - homozygous for wolf grey, black and normal extension. Will be black (genetically wolf grey). awatKkEE - homozygous for wolf grey, black and normal extension. Will be black (genetically wolf grey, carrying black-and-silver). atatKkEE - homozygous for tan points and recessive red, heterozygous for black. Will be black (genetically black and black-and-silver). So, two blacks: awatKkEE x atatKkEE Can produce: atatkkEE (black-and-silver); awatkkEE (salt & pepper); awatKkEE (black); awatKKEE (black); atatKkEE (black); atatKKEE (black) Or two blacks: awatKkEE x awatKkEE Can produce the same as the above plus awawKkEE (black) & awawKKEE (black) & awawKkEE (salt & pepper) & awawKKEE (salt&pepper) One of the blacks may also be heterozygous for red (Ee) which would give more genotypes as above but with the Ee variation. It is also possible that both blacks are Ee & by chance there were no red puppies. Edited February 28, 2010 by gundoglover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowenhart Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 What gundoglover said... Black is carried separately to Salt & Pepper and Black & Silver. So it's very very possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilaryo Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 (edited) Sorry off topic..... Anything but very simple genetics does my head in Edited March 1, 2010 by hilaryo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centitout Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Sorry off topic.....Anything but very simplistic genetics does my head in ME TOO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 black to black will produce S/P .We often get S/P in our black breedings because there are very few blacks that are line breed black. I dare say your pedigress arent solid black breedings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisart Dobes Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 One of the sires we used a couple of years ago is a dominant black dog - as far as all the colour charts indicate genetically this is impossible as both his sire and dam carry dilutes. His litter mates were brown/fawn/blue and black - all four colours produced (as it should be). He is black and tan and should carry the dilute gene and should produce black and brown puppies to a bitch not carrying the dilute gene or produce dilutes to a bitch carrying the dilute gene. His matings to date are: Black bitch (carrying no dilute) - all black pups (9) Brown bitch (carrying dilute) - all black pups (8) Fawn bitch (dilute herself / carrying dilute) - all black pups (10) Brown bitch (carrying dilute) - all black pups (10) Brown bitch (no dilute - but black & brown pups prior) - all black pups (8) Black bitch (carrying dilue) - all black pups (7) Black bitch (carrying dilutte) - all black pups (10) Genetically impossible as far as the 'specialists' are concerned - I love genetics they are so interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 He is black and tan and should carry the dilute gene and should produce black and brown puppies to a bitch not carrying the dilute gene or produce dilutes to a bitch carrying the dilute gene. Have you had him tested to see if he carries the dilute gene? My boy is a dilute as his his litter brother, there was a fawn in the litter. The brother carries for fawn, yet my boy does not. Both boys produce dilutes when put with a bitch carrying for dilute. I am waiting on tests to come back to see if my young pup carries for dilute as his mum does, but his sire does not. 6 weeks i have been waiting, not impressed was told 3-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisart Dobes Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 He's not my dog - if he were mine I would have done it, just for interest sake - his breeders haven't to my knowledge but with both parents and all 4 grandparents (and more in earlier generations) carrying dilute he genetically has to carry it according to our breed colour inheritance charts. And genetically there is no chance he can be a dominant black producing dog (according to the white coats ). Though this was proven fact over the fawn bitch - no need to test after that litter really. All four colours are recognised in our breed so there is no issue with that side of it - it is just very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 black to black will produce S/P .We often get S/P in our black breedings because there are very few blacks that are line breed black.I dare say your pedigress arent solid black breedings Yes, p/s does crop up in black/black breedings, it would also be possible for you to get white produced from such a mating along with the b/s. From what I understand, the p/s is the agouti gene and is in a different location then the black colour. A similar thing for the OP would be breeding 2 b/s dogs and getting white in the litter, even though we 'know' b/s is a recessive colour. Out of interest, does the p/s look like it will carry the b/s colour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 btw why don't you join us in the schnauzer forum on here and share some photos of your dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowenhart Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 He's not my dog - if he were mine I would have done it, just for interest sake - his breeders haven't to my knowledge but with both parents and all 4 grandparents (and more in earlier generations) carrying dilute he genetically has to carry it according to our breed colour inheritance charts. And genetically there is no chance he can be a dominant black producing dog (according to the white coats ). Though this was proven fact over the fawn bitch - no need to test after that litter really. All four colours are recognised in our breed so there is no issue with that side of it - it is just very interesting. Actually if you do the punnett squares it is possible as both parents carry "non-dilute" genes. It's an unlikely outcome but a possibility. Dobermann Color Chart -The parents would be #4's, and there is a 6.25% chance of a pup being dominant black (no dilute colours). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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