Puppy Breeders

[poodlefan]

While posters in this thread girly slap and pull each others hair, important facts about the DD debate are sliding from view.

Dogs suffer to produce those cute pups. Those who love dogs give a damn about the lives the parents of their pups lead.

Few, if any DD breeders health test their breeding stock. The fact that most registered breeders would gouge out their eyes before they'd sell a pup to a puppy farmer means that the quality of the breeding dogs PFs use is not great to start with. Ditto for temperament.

Pups whelped and raised in sheds often carry behavioural issues FOR LIFE. Early and intense socialisation with people needs to start before the pup leaves its birthplace.

No one can predict with any certainty what characteristics of the two parent breeds will be inherited by the pups.

For the record, I know someone with two pups from this place and both are nice dogs. They were bought in ignorance and their owner will not be buying again from that source. They were lucky with those pups. The same cannot be said for the dogs that produced them.

[poodlemum]

to Poodlefan for getting the thread back on track - I really get pi$$ed off with these threads turning into a hissy fight between a couple of people - it doesn't address the issue or help anyone.

[Silvawilow]

Isn't it illegal to sell puppies under 8 weeks of age?

[poodlemum]

Isn't it illegal to sell puppies under 8 weeks of age?

I don't know that it's actually ILLEGAL. Unethical, certainly, but no-one would accuse these puppy farmers of being ethical! Certainly registered breeders in Victoria are prevented by the VCA Code Of Ethics from selling puppies under 8 weeks.

[poodlefan]

Isn't it illegal to sell puppies under 8 weeks of age?

No. A lot of PFs ship them at 5 weeks.

[ozjen]

My brother and his wife have two oodles from this particular establishment. The dogs seem healthy enough although one clearly lacked socialisation with humans when very young. The biggest thing ive noticed about his dogs is how incredibly stupid they are, seriously. They eat ANYTHING and do mean anything. This has results in 2 emergency surguries, once after the dog ate a magnetic pool game, second time after one of them ate a skewer off the barbie - wooden skewer and all. They are brainless and not terribly attractive dogs although as puppies they were cute and fluffy. They dont have much personality and tend to yap.

I could not live with dogs as brainless as these two are! Poodles in particular are intelligent dogs, they have clearly bred the brains out of their dogs.

Unless she wants an unattractive, stupid dog with unknown health/behavioural problems, I would steer clear of buying an oodle from this puppy farm!

Before you run down crossbreeds, I suggest you be aware that many people on this forum have crossbreeds and that stupidity and eating whatever they feel like trying isn't limited to crossbreeds. There are also many attractive crossbreeds. I have no doubt Rivergum are puppyfarmers but running down crossbreeds wins you no points.

Im not running down crossbreeds? I have a crossbreed myself. What I am saying is that the oodles from this place are extremely dumb dogs. Granted I have only met two, but they were both from different litters several yrs apart I tend to think they are typical of what these ppl produce.

Perhaps you should not be so quick to assume..

Maybe they both belong to someone who has not trained them.

2 dogs 2 different litters but same home, coincidence maybe.

Perhaps is was more to do with the lack of mental stimulations in their early life as pups from a puppyfarm that makes them appear dumb rather than the breed mix. I can only imagine that dogs kept in the conditions that pupyfarms have that they would have to shut down mentally to survive in these shocking conditions. If the mother dog isn't stimulating her pups by playing with them and they have minimal human contact and mental stimulation what can one expect from the pups.

Not flaming anyone here just another opinion and perhaps this is what the OP was trying to point out rather than blaming the breed mix. I know I sometimes don't come across as clearly as I'd like to when posting.

[SmoothieGirl]

My heart just stopped for a beat....they let them go at FIVE weeks?!

Any news OP?

[poodlefan]

My heart just stopped for a beat....they let them go at FIVE weeks?!

Any news OP?

They're usually in the pet shops at 6 weeks. The younger they ship, the longer they are small and cute in retail outlets.

Basically they wean them and ship them. Then they live, eat and sleep in their faeces and urine in those little perspex boxes till they're sold, dead from illness (not uncommon) or deemed too old for sale and PTS.

If you buy direct, you'll have your pup at six weeks. Weaned pups cost money to feed - no profit in that.

Edited March 2, 2010 by poodlefan

[~Anne~]

Isn't it illegal to sell puppies under 8 weeks of age?

Each state has slightly different laws, but yes, it is illegal to my knowledge in both NSW and Vic to sell a pup under 8 weeks (although, from memory I think that private sales are different and this law applies only to bet shops and commercial operators I think??)

There is a document that you can obtain that gives the requirements.

[W Sibs]

The Legislation for NSW

NSW Companion Act

The Legislation for VIC

Domestic Animals Act 1994

I can post up legislations for other jurisdictions too if anyone is interested!

Edited March 2, 2010 by charleswentworth

[poodlefan]

The Legislation for NSW

NSW Companion Act

The Legislation for VIC

Domestic Animals Act 1994

I can post up legislations for other jurisdictions too if anyone is interested!

The document that controls the breeding and sale of pups in NSW is the Animal Welfare Code of Practice. It sets a minimum age for sale at 8 weeks.

I hadn't seen this document before. I wonder about whether or not it is being enforced.

[W Sibs]

The Legislation for NSW

NSW Companion Act

The Legislation for VIC

Domestic Animals Act 1994

I can post up legislations for other jurisdictions too if anyone is interested!

The document that controls the breeding and sale of pups in NSW is the Animal Welfare Code of Practice. It sets a minimum age for sale at 8 weeks.

I hadn't seen this document before. I wonder about whether or not it is being enforced.

This will be enforced March 2010

my bad.. it was enforced July 2009

Edited March 2, 2010 by charleswentworth

[poodlefan]

This will be enforced March 2010

Good. I look forward to seeing the local commercial puppy breeder's activities compared to that code.

[schnauzer]

While posters in this thread girly slap and pull each others hair, important facts about the DD debate are sliding from view.

Dogs suffer to produce those cute pups. Those who love dogs give a damn about the lives the parents of their pups lead.

Few, if any DD breeders health test their breeding stock. The fact that most registered breeders would gouge out their eyes before they'd sell a pup to a puppy farmer means that the quality of the breeding dogs PFs use is not great to start with. Ditto for temperament.

Pups whelped and raised in sheds often carry behavioural issues FOR LIFE. Early and intense socialisation with people needs to start before the pup leaves its birthplace.

No one can predict with any certainty what characteristics of the two parent breeds will be inherited by the pups.

For the record, I know someone with two pups from this place and both are nice dogs. They were bought in ignorance and their owner will not be buying again from that source. They were lucky with those pups. The same cannot be said for the dogs that produced them.

Great post Poodlefan and sadly, so true.

We have rescued puppy farm dogs - 8 last year, the lack of socialisation, behavioural issues and OCD behaviour is rife in dogs kept confined their entire life. They can be rehabilitated, some do recover quite quickly, others a lot longer in rehab. and some have the scars for life. One male we rescued last year, was kept in foster care for many months and took quite a while to become a social, confident boy and to be rehomeable. My own bitch still bears some behavioural traits/spinning when very stressed and it is 5 years since her rescue.

The fact that puppy farms let their pups go at 5-6 weeks is abhorent and cruel in the extreme.

Edited March 2, 2010 by schnauzer

[Lhok]

I've recently had a similar experience to the OP, a close friend of my OH stated that they wanted a "cavoodle" because they were cute. I told them all I could about puppy farms and whatnot but they said they had done their "research" and that their puppy wouldn't be coming from a place like a puppy farm and that they had spoken to several breeders of these dogs and they sounded nice and knowledgeable about the breed.

My little world has been rocked for 2 days now due to the ignorance people choose to display when it comes to dogs

--Lhok

[kiesha09]

So what if breeders of these dogs had a strict code of practice that they had to abide by in terms of health checks, ethical treatment, number of littlers etc. the same as registered breeders do? And there was a 'registered' breeders list. A bit like the labradoodle association.

Please do not get me wrong here, I am NOT supporting the breeding of designer dogs. But it sounds like most peoples issues with this are that they generally come from puppy farms at this stage. If we could educate the general public about puppy farms and why not to breed from them but ALSO gave them another option of where to purchase from this could be a much better solution.

I personally think that because there is a demand for these dogs and people want them, they will end up getting one no matter what which is supporting the puppy farmer trade. If people so desperately want one I'd much rather they get it from an ethical source where puppies have been health checked, temperament tested, socialiased etc. than a PF.

[gareth]

So what if breeders of these dogs had a strict code of practice that they had to abide by in terms of health checks, ethical treatment, number of littlers etc. the same as registered breeders do? And there was a 'registered' breeders list. A bit like the labradoodle association.

Why do people keep asking these questions? Why do people think that there is a need or benefit for purposefully crossing breeds with other breeds when there is a purebreed for everyone already in existence?

What ethical registered purebred breeder would supply crossbreeders with dogs of sufficient quality in terms of health, temperament and conformation to breed with?

Edited March 3, 2010 by gareth

[poodlefan]

I personally think that because there is a demand for these dogs and people want them, they will end up getting one no matter what which is supporting the puppy farmer trade.

The demand was created in part by a person with a beef with the purebred dog fancy, is based on misinformation and is fuelled by ignorance.

No amount of responsible breeding can make an F1 crossbred reliable in terms of appearance, temperment and non-shedding. Guide dogs got out of the game for a reason.

The people that continue to churn out F1 crosses don't look beyond their bank balances. There is little money to be made in responsibly and ethically breeding dogs.

The people that want one "no matter what" won't be interested in waiting for pups or being vetted by breeders. They'll go where they've always gone until those sources are shut down.

Edited March 3, 2010 by poodlefan

[kiesha09]

So what if breeders of these dogs had a strict code of practice that they had to abide by in terms of health checks, ethical treatment, number of littlers etc. the same as registered breeders do? And there was a 'registered' breeders list. A bit like the labradoodle association.

Why do people keep asking these questions? Why do people think that there is a need or benefit for purposefully crossing breeds with other breeds when there is a purebreed for everyone already in existence?What ethical registered purebred breeder would supply crossbreeders with dogs of sufficient quality in terms of health, temperament and conformation to breed with?

I totally agree with you that there is no need or benefit for purposefully crossing breeds with other breeds. If we could stop it then it would be great but unfortunately I think that no matter how the demand for these dogs was created it has been and it isn't going to go away. As a lover of dogs I would just like the best for them so since I think they are going to be bred anyway (whether we like it or not) the best scenario out of a bad situation would be if they could be bred eithically.

[lappiemum]

While posters in this thread girly slap and pull each others hair, important facts about the DD debate are sliding from view.

Dogs suffer to produce those cute pups. Those who love dogs give a damn about the lives the parents of their pups lead.

Few, if any DD breeders health test their breeding stock. The fact that most registered breeders would gouge out their eyes before they'd sell a pup to a puppy farmer means that the quality of the breeding dogs PFs use is not great to start with. Ditto for temperament.

Pups whelped and raised in sheds often carry behavioural issues FOR LIFE. Early and intense socialisation with people needs to start before the pup leaves its birthplace.

No one can predict with any certainty what characteristics of the two parent breeds will be inherited by the pups.

For the record, I know someone with two pups from this place and both are nice dogs. They were bought in ignorance and their owner will not be buying again from that source. They were lucky with those pups. The same cannot be said for the dogs that produced them.

I didn't attend myself, but I understand from reports that at the recent Breeding Better Dogs Seminar at Monash University, the 'commercial' puppy farmer was complaining about the fact that breeders won't share their lines with her, or offer her our good dogs to use. Um, right. Personally, I'd crawl over cut glass before a puppy farmer ever got near one of my dogs (and I do seriously vet people!) but there seems to be a complete lack of understanding by these 'breeders' as to why ethical breeders find 'farming' so distasteful. In much the same way that battery hen farmers don't get it.

Mind you, aside from the welfare and health and general treatment issues, there is the fact that dogs are social animals, and you can't expect a battery farmed animal to make a perfect companion if they are isolated and confined. That in itself speaks volumes of the stock that these so-called breeders put in ensuring temperament and mental health.