Repeat Matings

[*Lolapalooza*]

How do people feel about repeat breedings?

I have noticed that in my breed the second litter can be quite different to the first. i know each breeding is another whole set of genes and circumstances but

3 repeat breedings from different kennels I know of have produced.

1-1st: heavier typier dogs 2nd: finer dogs with lower HD scores

2-1st: 'normal' litter 2nd: higher tail carriages and lower HD scores

3-1st: typier dogs good longevity 2nd: finer dogs many died young.

What does everyone else think? Is this just a random observation or does this happen in other breeds too??

[SwaY]

Happens in all breeds from what i have read and seen.

Many say you don't get the same quality from repeat litters.

[ellz]

There have been a couple of notable repeat breedings in American Cockers and the progeny were as varied in each subsequent repeat as they were in the first. I think it may have been repeated 3 or 4 times and there were dogs titled from each one.

I am seriously considering a repeat here myself now. Given that there were only the 2 puppies (1 surviving) in my last American Cocker litter and I still think that at birth, the girl who was euthanased was better than the girl who survived, I think I'd like to see MORE of the breeding so that I can get a better basis of comparison of the success, or otherwise, of the combination.

[Aspyre]

There have been a couple of notable repeat breedings in American Cockers and the progeny were as varied in each subsequent repeat as they were in the first. I think it may have been repeated 3 or 4 times and there were dogs titled from each one.

I am seriously considering a repeat here myself now. Given that there were only the 2 puppies (1 surviving) in my last American Cocker litter and I still think that at birth, the girl who was euthanased was better than the girl who survived, I think I'd like to see MORE of the breeding so that I can get a better basis of comparison of the success, or otherwise, of the combination.

Like ellz says, I would think of repeating a mating if I did not get many puppies in the first litter.

[mersonmalinois]

I did a repeat mating after getting 9 puppies in the first litter. Here are the results:

Litter 1:

Ch Merson's Twilight Tear CGC, TDI, TT "Tara"

Ch Merson's Tabasco Cat CGC

Ch Merson's Dark Mirage O'Belair

Ch Merson's Honeycreek Tyr Logan CD, TT, CGC

Ch Merson's Thunder Gulch

Ch U-CDX Merson's Majestic Prince CDX, TD, ASCA CDX, TT, CGC, ROM2

Ch Merson's Bold Possum CD

Merson's Timber Country

Merson's Citation

Litter 2:

Ch Merson's Hammerin' Hank RN, HIC, TDI, CGC, TT

Ch Merson's XIV KT Dutch Master HCT, TDI, CGC

Ch Merson's Blue Moon HIC

HC MACH Merson's Fabled Wrigley Vines Merson's Fabled Wrigley Vines UDT, HXAds, OF, RA, VCD2, O-EAC, OJC, OGC, HTDIs, CGC, ROM 2

U-CDX Merson's Daddy Wags CDX, ASCA-CDX, HCT, WETT, TDI, AATD, O-V, TT, ROM3

Merson's Grand Slam Savannah

VERY influential litters in our breed, excellent health/temperaments and the few that were bred produced well too. I know I was VERY lucky with these results, but I think if you have a feeling about a combination, do it twice!

eta: Here is a link to the OFA website with the health results of many of the dogs listed above: http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=460060#animal

Edited February 26, 2010 by mersonmalinois

[Jed]

How do people feel about repeat breedings?

I have noticed that in my breed the second litter can be quite different to the first. i know each breeding is another whole set of genes and circumstances but

3 repeat breedings from different kennels I know of have produced.

1-1st: heavier typier dogs 2nd: finer dogs with lower HD scores

2-1st: 'normal' litter 2nd: higher tail carriages and lower HD scores

3-1st: typier dogs good longevity 2nd: finer dogs many died young.

What does everyone else think? Is this just a random observation or does this happen in other breeds too??

I have nothing against repeat matings.

If the matings are complete outcrosses, and results from litter to litter and pup to pup will probably vary more than if they are line bred.

Congratulations MM!! good result.

[whippets]

In general, I won't do repeat matings or use frozen semen from some dog that lived 20 years ago. Always move forward. Having 1 pup in a litter or a litter that dies is an exception.

[Dogsfevr]

we will repeat if there is low numbers/one sex or a situation has occurred with the lines vanishing quicker than planned otherwise i dont see the point of doing to many repeats for future progression BUT we would never not consider it

[angelsun]

I did one combination three times because it was so successful. Out of all three breedings, I obtained the same basic looking offspring. Of the dogs that went into show homes, they all were successful and some were amazing. This was an outcross mating and three most of what I thought I knew to the wind as for the results, but clearly, the combination was good and worked.

I'm breeding back to all these girls now, and am consistantly pleased with what they as foundations, have done. These girls have also provided outstanding starting points for the others that have chosen my dogs and generations later, are continuing to show the quality. Smart breeders have taken these girls and linebred them, which I think is the key to holding what I got out of those matings.

Would I do it again? I doubt I'll have two dogs that would provide to me the genes I need, but if I saw a litter like I did that first time, yes I would and take my chances that it was consistant. I find that even in no repeat matings, where there is inconsistancy, it has meant that the initial intent of linebreeding or phenotype matching just wasn't there in the first place. One or two outstanding pups in a litter of 8, isn't in my opinion, an outstanding overall litter.

[ellz]

I find that even in no repeat matings, where there is inconsistancy, it has meant that the initial intent of linebreeding or phenotype matching just wasn't there in the first place. One or two outstanding pups in a litter of 8, isn't in my opinion, an outstanding overall litter.

+1

I saw SO MUCH consistency in my recent Stafford litter of 9 (outcross) that although it would be tempting to see if I could wing it again, I can't see the point. Almost without exception, I could have gone "eeny-meeny-miney-moe" and chosen a puppy and still ended up with something very promising. I was stunned to the point of amazement and I've never seen such a litter before and probably never will again.

It has been suggested that because I was so pleased with the union, that I repeat it. But why would I do that? I have a dog and a bitch. I saw the other 7 puppies daily until they were at least 9 weeks of age. The dog I chose for the WORST reasons, mostly sentimentality but hey, you've gotta love them first and foremost...right! The bitch I chose because she came closest to what I was looking for in a bitch with some of what her mother had, but more of what I was hoping to get....and she was marginally shorter in body than the next closest bitch. I'm just VERY glad that they were all "labelled" with coloured collars at birth or I would have literally not been able to tell them apart without a lot of confusion!

What I probably WILL do is consider using a brother of the dog I used (there are 2 others available at stud) or even perhaps the sire of the dog I used. It will be interesting to see if the genetic potential of the brothers is the same or wherever else what I got came from!

[angelsun]

I agree in part with what you're saying Ellz regarding using brother of the dog you used etc...if you've got that opportunity, go for it!

I was amazed at the quality and consistancy of my X3 repeat outcross, and wasn't in your position as there was no intact brother of my male, and his father had landed in a puppy mill home! Genetically, I was stuck and although I'd never done something like this before, I chose to do a repeat. Once the second litter was on the ground and the first grown up a bit, I realized what I had and bit the bullet and did it again. To have two very compatible dogs that would consistantly produce what they did and not, would have been a detriment to my breed and it's small genetic population.

I don't regret doing it, but not sure if I'll ever be in that spot to HAVE to do it again. I actually hope not, as although I've done this, I don't believe that it's all that great in the long run, but depends on your situation. I've used these sisters in many different ways, linebreeding back to various dogs on the dams side. Now that the sire is passed on, I can only go back to his sons or grandsons and there aren't many of those out there intact. I have semen on him, but it isn't permitted in Australia due to quarantine rules

Repeating twice...maybe...but three times..probably never again.

[whippets]

Be interesting with the litter I have coming up. Apart from 2 dogs in the last litter (including the male I kept and one that went to Tassy) my bitch threw mainly to her side, from a USA imported dog. This litter coming up, the sire is totally different but shares the dam side with my bitch. I'm excited/curious to see if she is strong as I think she is throwing more of herself than to the stud dogs. Time will tell.... 2 1/2 weeks to go.

I get excited about this part of breeding show dogs.

Edited February 28, 2010 by whippets