Please Define 'game'

[sandgrubber]

I don't think the opposite of 'game' is relevant. Labradors are bred to be biddable. That has nothing to do with competition or a "very, very strong will to win". It has to do with trying to do what is asked of them and being pretty clever about understanding people.

I'm not saying that all dogs should be Labradors. Just that dogs can be quite stable without being 'game' by any of the criteria that have been put forward on this thread..

Actually, I think you could possibly use 'game' with Labradors. They are also bred to be retrieve fallen game in cold water, adverse weather conditions and to go through brush and uncomfortable terrain to get it. That tenacious determination to retrieve could be called 'game'.

Yup. And those with tenacious determination to retrieve often make great working dogs, but not the best pets. As with, say, herding in kelpies.

Labs generally have very high pain tolerance and thick coats . . . I once owned a wooss of a Labrador who didn't hesitate to retrieve from stream while there was still a lot of ice and snow about. Tenacious determination . . . no. Willingness to try, definately.

I think 'drive' and 'game' should have separate meanings, though I'm still confused about what the distinction is.

[Greytmate]

I don't think the opposite of 'game' is relevant. Labradors are bred to be biddable. That has nothing to do with competition or a "very, very strong will to win". It has to do with trying to do what is asked of them and being pretty clever about understanding people.

I'm not saying that all dogs should be Labradors. Just that dogs can be quite stable without being 'game' by any of the criteria that have been put forward on this thread..

Actually, I think you could possibly use 'game' with Labradors. They are also bred to be retrieve fallen game in cold water, adverse weather conditions and to go through brush and uncomfortable terrain to get it. That tenacious determination to retrieve could be called 'game'.

That is what I am referring to Kavik.

Some dogs retrieve, some herd, some kill. Game is about the solid nerve of the dog that allows it to go into that drive without fear. Factors in the environment will put some dogs off, but the gamest dogs are less affected by those environmental factors. A guide dog would have to be game (by my definition of game) to cope with all the challenges. Of course these dogs are highly trained, so the behaviour they display isn't going to be the type of raw prey drive you see in a ball-obsessed pet lab.

[Longcoat]

They speak of lock jaw in the APBT which we know is incorrect as far as it's jaw structure goes, but where they hang on to finish the job regardless if someone kicks, punches, puts the hose on them etc etc to break up a fight, the "gameness" of the dog is what keeps the dog fighting on despite all attempts to stop it.

A ranger told me once that gameness in a dog if a fight erupts don't back off until the fight is over regardless what instigated the fight. A dog that isn't "game" can be easily stopped from fighting, a kick or punch, hosing them down, or even yelling at them will cause a retreat which the ranger I recall told me was the difference???. He also said that some dogs have a vision for threat removal where they will bite if challenged, but if the threat retreats, the job is done. Some which is often consistant with the APBT if a fight develops, they fight to the end and virtually nothing will stop them???.

[rottiadora]

They speak of lock jaw in the APBT which we know is incorrect as far as it's jaw structure goes, but where they hang on to finish the job regardless if someone kicks, punches, puts the hose on them etc etc to break up a fight, the "gameness" of the dog is what keeps the dog fighting on despite all attempts to stop it.

A ranger told me once that gameness in a dog if a fight erupts don't back off until the fight is over regardless what instigated the fight. A dog that isn't "game" can be easily stopped from fighting, a kick or punch, hosing them down, or even yelling at them will cause a retreat which the ranger I recall told me was the difference???. He also said that some dogs have a vision for threat removal where they will bite if challenged, but if the threat retreats, the job is done. Some which is often consistant with the APBT if a fight develops, they fight to the end and virtually nothing will stop them???.

He was totally wrong.

Good posts "Greytmate"

Edited February 28, 2010 by rottiadora

[Longcoat]

They speak of lock jaw in the APBT which we know is incorrect as far as it's jaw structure goes, but where they hang on to finish the job regardless if someone kicks, punches, puts the hose on them etc etc to break up a fight, the "gameness" of the dog is what keeps the dog fighting on despite all attempts to stop it.

A ranger told me once that gameness in a dog if a fight erupts don't back off until the fight is over regardless what instigated the fight. A dog that isn't "game" can be easily stopped from fighting, a kick or punch, hosing them down, or even yelling at them will cause a retreat which the ranger I recall told me was the difference???. He also said that some dogs have a vision for threat removal where they will bite if challenged, but if the threat retreats, the job is done. Some which is often consistant with the APBT if a fight develops, they fight to the end and virtually nothing will stop them???.

He was totally wrong.

Good posts "Greytmate"

Which part is totally wrong rottiadore , most of what the ranger told me reflects the same as what Greytmate has told us???

[BJean]

I don't think the opposite of 'game' is relevant. Labradors are bred to be biddable. That has nothing to do with competition or a "very, very strong will to win". It has to do with trying to do what is asked of them and being pretty clever about understanding people.

I'm not saying that all dogs should be Labradors. Just that dogs can be quite stable without being 'game' by any of the criteria that have been put forward on this thread..

Actually, I think you could possibly use 'game' with Labradors. They are also bred to be retrieve fallen game in cold water, adverse weather conditions and to go through brush and uncomfortable terrain to get it. That tenacious determination to retrieve could be called 'game'.

That is what I am referring to Kavik.

Some dogs retrieve, some herd, some kill. Game is about the solid nerve of the dog that allows it to go into that drive without fear. Factors in the environment will put some dogs off, but the gamest dogs are less affected by those environmental factors. A guide dog would have to be game (by my definition of game) to cope with all the challenges. Of course these dogs are highly trained, so the behaviour they display isn't going to be the type of raw prey drive you see in a ball-obsessed pet lab.

Great definition Greytmate, encompasses all dogs without getting into suburban legend cliche

kavik I would not have thought of that extrapolation! but tis true!

Edited February 28, 2010 by lilli

[BJean]

Labradors are bred to be biddable. That has nothing to do with competition or a "very, very strong will to win". It has to do with trying to do what is asked of them and being pretty clever about understanding people.

I'm not saying that all dogs should be Labradors. Just that dogs can be quite stable without being 'game' by any of the criteria that have been put forward on this thread.. . Just as some leading humans would be classed as 'game' by the sort of definitions put forward in this thread, and some would not. Moreover, some very 'game' humans are pretty unstable . . . those are ones I try to avoid.

Are Labs easy to train? Do they offer no challenge to their owner?

Or is it, that once trained / matured / raised, they are biddable to their owner, family?

where biddable = to do what is asked and when; obedient, tractable.

Edited February 28, 2010 by lilli

[BJean]

I am not sure I would agree that fighting dogs always fight out of either fear or aggression. Whilst iv never owned a fighting dog or been involved in dog fighting, from what I have seen, it really depends. I think some dogs fight purely out of instruction, doing a job, the same as dogs which are trained for military use. Iv seen much footage of Tosa Inu fighting in Japan and Korea and they certainly do not strike me as bieng aggressive. They hold thier tails straight out naturally, and wag side to side in a relaxed fashion. Thier hackles are down, and they do not growl or infact make any sound at all.

I dont think they do either. Dogs can fight from fear, sexual drive respsonse / survial mode

or

as part of the definition of 'what is' about that dog/breed/job description.

The 'gameness' or nerve

of a dog to hold its position and not waive from its intent, is intrinsic.

Some dogs are born with it, some aren't.

dogs dont fight out of aggression

That makes no sense.

Aggression is an end-product

Edited February 28, 2010 by lilli

[rottiadora]

They speak of lock jaw in the APBT which we know is incorrect as far as it's jaw structure goes, but where they hang on to finish the job regardless if someone kicks, punches, puts the hose on them etc etc to break up a fight, the "gameness" of the dog is what keeps the dog fighting on despite all attempts to stop it.

A ranger told me once that gameness in a dog if a fight erupts don't back off until the fight is over regardless what instigated the fight. A dog that isn't "game" can be easily stopped from fighting, a kick or punch, hosing them down, or even yelling at them will cause a retreat which the ranger I recall told me was the difference???. He also said that some dogs have a vision for threat removal where they will bite if challenged, but if the threat retreats, the job is done. Some which is often consistant with the APBT if a fight develops, they fight to the end and virtually nothing will stop them???.

He was totally wrong.

Good posts "Greytmate"

Which part is totally wrong rottiadore , most of what the ranger told me reflects the same as what Greytmate has told us???

A game dog "can" be handled and stopped from fighting whilst retaining a will to win because of their level head. That is one of the things looked for in a pit fighting dog. Nobody wants a dog that can't be stopped or controlled by a handler. Both dogs must be able to fight another day.

Edited February 28, 2010 by rottiadora

[sandgrubber]

Labradors are bred to be biddable. That has nothing to do with competition or a "very, very strong will to win". It has to do with trying to do what is asked of them and being pretty clever about understanding people.

I'm not saying that all dogs should be Labradors. Just that dogs can be quite stable without being 'game' by any of the criteria that have been put forward on this thread.. . Just as some leading humans would be classed as 'game' by the sort of definitions put forward in this thread, and some would not. Moreover, some very 'game' humans are pretty unstable . . . those are ones I try to avoid.

Are Labs easy to train? Do they offer no challenge to their owner?

Or is it, that once trained / matured / raised, they are biddable to their owner, family?

where biddable = to do what is asked and when; obedient, tractable.

The breed standard specifies that Labradors should be biddable. Some are relatively stubborn or independent, but yes, in general they are tractable. But I don't think it should be a military-style obedience . . . rather a cooperative style based on some understanding of the job to be done. My mother never did any formal training and was not trained at training dogs. Her Labs picked up 'out of the garden' to mean 'stick to the path' . . . 'bad birds' to mean 'you can chase those birds [even though you are not supposed to chase birds]' . . . and they learned to walk on the floorboards and avoid the Persian carpets. Excellent recall. Horrible gutsers. I tend to think that most dogs have a higher emotional IQ than most humans, and Labbies have higher emotional IQ's than most dogs . . . my very biased judgement. The point being that 'gameness' is not what is valued . . . it's something much softer.

I was told that blind obedience (no pun intended) was undesirable in a guide dog. Eg, if you command a guide dog to walk in front of an oncoming car, it should refuse to do so. Not sure if it's true, but makes sense to me.

I can see the 'game' word making sense for the ancestral Labradors, who, legend has it, hauled in fish nets in the Bay of Fundy. That would require courage, spirit and tolerance of a potentially dangerous and bitterly cold environment. The derived gun dogs need to be highly cooperative. Strong, enthusiastic, yes. But able to be recalled at any point in the retrieve, and not so carried away by getting the bird that they ruffle the feathers. Not to be distracted by other dogs . . . or to scare away the game by getting into a fraccus with other dogs.

Edited March 1, 2010 by sandgrubber

[merijigs]

The specific terms for temperament from the Breed Standard for the Kerry Blue Terrier are 'disciplined gameness'.

This is interpreted by fanciers as the dog being up on its toes and alert with every fibre of its being when in the presence of other dogs but never, ever launching, barking or snapping. Rather, relying on and trusting it's handler to be the one in control of any situation involving interaction with other dogs. A very fine line indeed for the dog to balance upon.

[APBT]

They speak of lock jaw in the APBT which we know is incorrect as far as it's jaw structure goes, but where they hang on to finish the job regardless if someone kicks, punches, puts the hose on them etc etc to break up a fight, the "gameness" of the dog is what keeps the dog fighting on despite all attempts to stop it.

A ranger told me once that gameness in a dog if a fight erupts don't back off until the fight is over regardless what instigated the fight. A dog that isn't "game" can be easily stopped from fighting, a kick or punch, hosing them down, or even yelling at them will cause a retreat which the ranger I recall told me was the difference???. He also said that some dogs have a vision for threat removal where they will bite if challenged, but if the threat retreats, the job is done. Some which is often consistant with the APBT if a fight develops, they fight to the end and virtually nothing will stop them???.

He was totally wrong.

Good posts "Greytmate"

Which part is totally wrong rottiadore , most of what the ranger told me reflects the same as what Greytmate has told us???

A game dog "can" be handled and stopped from fighting whilst retaining a will to win because of their level head. That is one of the things looked for in a pit fighting dog. Nobody wants a dog that can't be stopped or controlled by a handler. Both dogs must be able to fight another day.

exactly, owners are sometimes in the pit while the dogs are fighting, and some of the fighting dogs are kept inside with the family like any other dog.

[Longcoat]

They speak of lock jaw in the APBT which we know is incorrect as far as it's jaw structure goes, but where they hang on to finish the job regardless if someone kicks, punches, puts the hose on them etc etc to break up a fight, the "gameness" of the dog is what keeps the dog fighting on despite all attempts to stop it.

A ranger told me once that gameness in a dog if a fight erupts don't back off until the fight is over regardless what instigated the fight. A dog that isn't "game" can be easily stopped from fighting, a kick or punch, hosing them down, or even yelling at them will cause a retreat which the ranger I recall told me was the difference???. He also said that some dogs have a vision for threat removal where they will bite if challenged, but if the threat retreats, the job is done. Some which is often consistant with the APBT if a fight develops, they fight to the end and virtually nothing will stop them???.

He was totally wrong.

Good posts "Greytmate"

Which part is totally wrong rottiadore , most of what the ranger told me reflects the same as what Greytmate has told us???

A game dog "can" be handled and stopped from fighting whilst retaining a will to win because of their level head. That is one of the things looked for in a pit fighting dog. Nobody wants a dog that can't be stopped or controlled by a handler. Both dogs must be able to fight another day.

That's a training issue and is often the most difficult thing to teach in Schutzhund for a determined "game" dog to out on command and not re-engage. Untrained dogs in the fight will not out and the gamer the dog, the less likelihood of stopping the fight.

[Greytmate]

Game dogs can be trained to do whatever. Depends on the skill of the trainer and the intelligence of the dog.

Dogs that lack gameness cannot have gameness trained into them.

For instance, a dog that hesitates when it gets to a fluttering tarpaulin can be trained to ignore all fluttering tarpaulins. But that won't stop them hesitating when they get to something else new and weird and noisy.

The game dog doesn't hesitate at things like fluttering tarpaulins.

Training is something quite separate from gameness. But you probably would be training a lot differently with a game dog than you would with a dog that isn't game.

[doit4thedogz]

They speak of lock jaw in the APBT which we know is incorrect as far as it's jaw structure goes, but where they hang on to finish the job regardless if someone kicks, punches, puts the hose on them etc etc to break up a fight, the "gameness" of the dog is what keeps the dog fighting on despite all attempts to stop it.

A ranger told me once that gameness in a dog if a fight erupts don't back off until the fight is over regardless what instigated the fight. A dog that isn't "game" can be easily stopped from fighting, a kick or punch, hosing them down, or even yelling at them will cause a retreat which the ranger I recall told me was the difference???. He also said that some dogs have a vision for threat removal where they will bite if challenged, but if the threat retreats, the job is done. Some which is often consistant with the APBT if a fight develops, they fight to the end and virtually nothing will stop them???.

He was totally wrong.

Good posts "Greytmate"

Which part is totally wrong rottiadore , most of what the ranger told me reflects the same as what Greytmate has told us???

A game dog "can" be handled and stopped from fighting whilst retaining a will to win because of their level head. That is one of the things looked for in a pit fighting dog. Nobody wants a dog that can't be stopped or controlled by a handler. Both dogs must be able to fight another day.

Yes a game dog can be stopped. By the owner using a break stick.

A game dog that loves to fight will ofcourse will need someone to step in and force the dog off.

[justin19801]

Game bred APBTs are dogs which accomplish a task no matter what, whether it be herding, sniffing, SAR whatever. The numbers involved in fighting are so small as to be insignificant and not representative of the breed as a whole.

[sandgrubber]

Interesting. I assumed it was something like the game in "I'm game" . . . and thus meaning up for anything, enthusiastic, or at least willing to go along.

Game as an adjective is a word going back to the 1600s. It is from a very Old English word "gamen" which means joy or pleasure.

Funny how a word can take on so many meanings.

[mita]

I assumed it was something like the game in "I'm game" . . . and thus meaning up for anything, enthusiastic, or at least willing to go along.

Game as an adjective is a word going back to the 1600s. It is from a very Old English word "gamen" which means joy or pleasure.

I did, too. Which is why I've also found this thread interesting.

[Longcoat]

I assumed it was something like the game in "I'm game" . . . and thus meaning up for anything, enthusiastic, or at least willing to go along.

Game as an adjective is a word going back to the 1600s. It is from a very Old English word "gamen" which means joy or pleasure.

I did, too. Which is why I've also found this thread interesting.

That's what "game"does mean in reference to dogs.

[rottiadora]

I always thought "game" meant "up for the any challenge" or "have an attempt with confidence".