Please Define 'game'

[sandgrubber]

People are saying some breeds are meant to be 'game' but not DA.

As I understand it, a 'game' dog is a dog that will accept a challenge. Is that correct? Then how do you draw the boundary between DA and game?

In particular, will a 'game' dog attack a dog, such as a typical young, boisterous staffie, who happens to have body language that could be interpreted as aggression?

[APBT]

This is "Game"

What is a Game Test?

I would describe a game test as a hard roll for your dog, usually, but not always thirty minutes or longer. It is a roll in which your dog will get hurt, tired and getting the worst of the fight. This game test will tell you what your dog will do when he is tired and being handled by his opponent. Does he have the gameness to keep trying to win against a stronger dog, when he's tired and on the bottom most of the time? How does he act in his corner? How does he scratch into a dog that's getting the best of him? The game test will answer all of these questions and also tell you about your dogs stamina and fighting abilities. A game test should never be against an opponent of the opposite sex. To make sure that your dog gets the most out of the roll, their opponent should be several pounds heavier, but do not overdo this!

-From The Bull Terrier Times Magazine

And yes Game dogs need much more attention and will be more DA then your average bred house APBT.

Edited February 25, 2010 by APBT

[WreckitWhippet]

A game dog in the traditional working sense, is one that has the courage and the determination to do a job. Such as your earthdogs, who show no fear in entering a burrow and taking on the prey. They are always up for it and ready.

I think the word "game" has been hijacked to a degree and asigned to dog fighting, something which I don't think it should ever have been applied to. Those dogs aren't "game", they are fighting to survive, fighting out of fear or aggression.

They like to call them "game dogs" but the reailty is they are either dog aggressive , fearfull or in self preservation mode.

ETA: In relation to the SBT

He can be a great fighting machine if set upon, exhibiting in this a single-minded purposefulness and craftsmanship not to be found

in any other breed. On the other hand he is one of the most trustworthy, affectionate and gentle creatures with humans; so much so many doubt his ability as a guard.

Amplification: Temperament is well covered in the Characteristics clause except to add that

he should be totally reliable, a gentleman unless set upon.

Edited February 25, 2010 by SBT123

[GeckoTree]

I hope no one on here has a proven game APBT, because it means it would have been tested to find out, and then past the gameness test posted above. Sick Mofo's.

I whole heartedly agree with sbt's interpretation on game. Courage under fire, and wont give up. I've seen cattle dogs with that trait helping to catch wild scrub bulls.

Edited February 25, 2010 by GeckoTree

[Sandra777]

Game as applied to a SBT would mean to me, never give up and if applied to a fighting situation, yes never admit defeat in a fight.

Unfortunately "dead game" is a bad out come of game (which I have experienced) and was the "highest accolade" for a fighting dog, even though I think it's fairly bizarre to be proud of a dog which is now dead and therefore can't earn you any more money/bigger testicles/whatever they got out of fighting,

I have owned several dogs I would describe as game, one was definitely DA and was a sod of a dog, the others have all been bitches and no, they would not have started a fight. Generally speaking a game dog is quiet and confident, a dog which makes the appearance of being aggressive is usually "all mouth and nowt trousers"

[Longcoat]

Dog fighting breeds

In dog fighting breeds gameness is valued as it gives the dog the ability to maintain the attack in baiting, despite ripped flesh, dehydration, exhaustion or broken bones. As one writer describes it, "Game is the dog that won't quit fighting, the dog that'll die in the ring, the dog that'll fight with two broken legs." The scope and method of training to develop a game dog varies dramatically depending on the level and experience of the dog-fighter. The most famous "gamebred" breed of dog is the American Pit Bull Terrier.

Above is the Wikipedia definition for game in fighting dog breeds.

[RottnBullies]

Game bred dogs never give up, no matter the circumstances or task Involved

It does not always equate to aggressiveness, they are dominant but also very stable dogs

Gameness Is not always about fighting, It Is a trait that comes from the heart of a dog

I think In today's world the term Is used too loosley, It's an Intense trait, but I think not a very common one.

They don't make them like they used to, comes to mind

Such as your earthdogs, who show no fear in entering a burrow and taking on the prey. They are always up for it and ready.

That Is not game! If It were then almost every dog could be labeled game Game Is going In there with 4 broken limbs as an extreme example, and all the odds stacked against It, and coming out or dye trying. It's not about having no fear, but about still doing the job when to most dogs It Is not physically capable! Such as under extreme stress and pain. That Is how I define It.

Edited February 26, 2010 by RottnBullies

[WreckitWhippet]

I think some people need to look outside the Pit Bull box that they live in.

Terriers have been described as "game" throughout their history and it's not limited to dogs that will fight to the death or the extreme example that has been used.

The humble little JRT is referred to as a "game little Terrier". The Lakeland is another example, expect to follow a fox into a narrow lair and also hunt Badgers. Fox Terriers, were expected to take on Foxes much larger than themselves, they were used to drive the Fox from it's hiding spot or den out into the open.

They do it with courage and tenacity.

[Longcoat]

I think some people need to look outside the Pit Bull box that they live in.

Terriers have been described as "game" throughout their history and it's not limited to dogs that will fight to the death or the extreme example that has been used.

The humble little JRT is referred to as a "game little Terrier". The Lakeland is another example, expect to follow a fox into a narrow lair and also hunt Badgers. Fox Terriers, were expected to take on Foxes much larger than themselves, they were used to drive the Fox from it's hiding spot or den out into the open.

They do it with courage and tenacity.

Whilst I agree with you SBT123, as you would have seen in my previous post providing a Wikipedia definition, the APBT has a worldwide recognition for "gameness" which doesn't help it's cause in connection with BSL unfortunately. We can play the gameness down, breed and train it out, but the trait remains part of the characteristic that the BSL supporters latch onto with "gameness" to condemn the breed.

[Longcoat]

Game bred dogs never give up, no matter the circumstances or task Involved

It does not always equate to aggressiveness, they are dominant but also very stable dogs

Gameness Is not always about fighting, It Is a trait that comes from the heart of a dog

I think In today's world the term Is used too loosley, It's an Intense trait, but I think not a very common one.

They don't make them like they used to, comes to mind

Such as your earthdogs, who show no fear in entering a burrow and taking on the prey. They are always up for it and ready.

That Is not game! If It were then almost every dog could be labeled game Game Is going In there with 4 broken limbs as an extreme example, and all the odds stacked against It, and coming out or dye trying. It's not about having no fear, but about still doing the job when to most dogs It Is not physically capable! Such as under extreme stress and pain. That Is how I define It.

There was an article I read from the USA not long ago where a police K9 was released to apprehend two offenders on foot. The dog nailed one guy and the other guy stabbed the dog multiple times with fatal wounds. The dog although in severe pain and essentially dying, held on a full hard bite until the handler caught up and arrested the offender. The dog released on the handlers command and died instantly, but the article was about a bravery award given to the dog in service from sheer "gameness" of doing his job in apprehension despite suffering horrific stab wounds in the process and holding onto life until his handler had made the arrest.

[GeckoTree]

Game bred?

[Sandra777]

Game bred?

The progeny of game proven dogs - generally for generations, but technically could be parents only.

[sandgrubber]

There was an article I read from the USA not long ago where a police K9 was released to apprehend two offenders on foot. The dog nailed one guy and the other guy stabbed the dog multiple times with fatal wounds. The dog although in severe pain and essentially dying, held on a full hard bite until the handler caught up and arrested the offender. The dog released on the handlers command and died instantly, but the article was about a bravery award given to the dog in service from sheer "gameness" of doing his job in apprehension despite suffering horrific stab wounds in the process and holding onto life until his handler had made the arrest.

So it's not locking jaws . . . it's gameness . . . that makes dogs hang on 'til grim death.

Not my cup of tea. Guess it's fine for guard dogs if they are under control. Not sure it's a virtue for the average family dog with so-so training and discipline.

[Greytmate]

In my breed, if you look at what makes the differences between a true champion and the rest, one is a different temperament. It is a very, very strong will to win.

And that means you do have to handle the dog carefully to avoid incidences of DA, because that dog is competitive, and really enjoys a challenge. If there is something that dog wants that it thinks it can get, it will try harder than other dogs do.

Luckily the challenge in greyhounds is to catch and win the fluffy toy. Once caught, and in the dog's possession, the challenge is more or less over. And if it isn't, it is no problem in releasing a greyhound's jaws.

DA doesn't always go with gameness, but in the wrong hands it is more likely to. In the right hands these dogs are very special and worthy dogs.

It's scary the way that people choose breeds on looks or image with no understanding of what lies inside the dog's mind. It is so important that people choose the right breed and the right individual from that breed, but people just enter into it so blindly sometimes.

[Greytmate]

And the opposite of game, a lack of gameness. It is instability and insecurity. Not good or safe traits in a family pet.

Most dogs that are bred for gameness fall in the middle of a huge scale. Greyhounds are bred to try to get that winning temperament, but not everyone achieves that and in my breed there are countless stories of fast dogs that couldn't cut it in the field.

So it is not simply extreme gameness or lack of gameness that is a problem with APBT. Not all APBT are game, especially now in Australia that the breeding is virtually underground, and the test for gameness in that breed is illegal. A game APBT could be a disaster in the wrong hands, but one that is not game at all could be a disaster in anyone's hands. An intrinsic lack of gameness is a fault that cannot be fixed, despite any behaviour modification.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Yes that is also my interpretation of the word. "Game" is not fight specific, and certainly not APBT specific. Its just a dog which is bold, courageous, and willing to put in 100% to see a job through.

I am not sure I would agree that fighting dogs always fight out of either fear or aggression. Whilst iv never owned a fighting dog or been involved in dog fighting, from what I have seen, it really depends. I think some dogs fight purely out of instruction, doing a job, the same as dogs which are trained for military use. Iv seen much footage of Tosa Inu fighting in Japan and Korea and they certainly do not strike me as bieng aggressive. They hold thier tails straight out naturally, and wag side to side in a relaxed fashion. Thier hackles are down, and they do not growl or infact make any sound at all.

eta:

Actually id like to add one more thing which supports my observations

I also remember reading once, that the Samurai used to look to the Tosa Inu for inspiration, due to its courage and even tempermant. Ofcourse that was at the heart of thier philosophy and spiritual beliefs, the strict importance of an even tempermant, not to fight out of aggression or build up of anxiety, ect.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Lo Pan

[sandgrubber]

And the opposite of game, a lack of gameness. It is instability and insecurity. Not good or safe traits in a family pet.

WRONG! Group 3 dogs, in general, are not supposed to show tenacity of bite or any HA or DA tendencies, and supposed to have soft mouths. Guide dogs, for example, are not insecure and unstable. Sadly, they tend to get bested when a DA dog under some idiot's lack of control attacks them. I agree with most people that focus should be on the owner. I think any bloke whose dog attacks a guide dog should be castrated and locked up for awhile . . . after that the dog issue may subside. But legal systems are not very good at targeting yabo owners.

Edited February 28, 2010 by sandgrubber

[Greytmate]

And the opposite of game, a lack of gameness. It is instability and insecurity. Not good or safe traits in a family pet.

WRONG! Group 3 dogs, in general, are not supposed to show tenacity of bite or any HA or DA tendencies, and supposed to have soft mouths. Guide dogs, for example, are not insecure and unstable. Sadly, they tend to get bested when a DA dog under some idiot's lack of control attacks them. I agree with most people that focus should be on the owner. I think any bloke whose dog attacks a guide dog should be castrated and locked up for awhile . . . after that the dog issue may subside. But legal systems are not very good at targeting yabo owners.

I have just spent two posts explaining what gameness is, and in my opinion it has nothing to do with tenacity of bite, HA, DA, or soft mouths.

A labrador can be game. So many dogs are bred for guide dog training, but only the dogs with the 'game' temperament will make it through. Unstable and insecure dogs will not.

But if you are going to ignore my definition of 'game', and go back to a meaning that just means "bites hard and aggressively", how about you tell us what you think the opposite of game is.

It is terrible that the pitbull attacked the guide dog. That doesn't mean the pit bull was gamer than the guide dog at all. I don't think we can comment on that incident unless we could see exactly what happenned. We know the pitbull owner was responsible for allowing it to happen. But there is no way we can claim the pitbull was game or not game.

They are dogs, dogs fight each other all the time, not just pitbulls.

[sandgrubber]

I have just spent two posts explaining what gameness is, and in my opinion it has nothing to do with tenacity of bite, HA, DA, or soft mouths.

A labrador can be game. So many dogs are bred for guide dog training, but only the dogs with the 'game' temperament will make it through. Unstable and insecure dogs will not.

But if you are going to ignore my definition of 'game', and go back to a meaning that just means "bites hard and aggressively", how about you tell us what you think the opposite of game is.

You are not the only one who has defined 'game'. And to quote you " true champion and the rest, one is a different temperament. It is a very, very strong will to win."

Labradors are bred to be biddable. That has nothing to do with competition or a "very, very strong will to win". It has to do with trying to do what is asked of them and being pretty clever about understanding people.

I'm not saying that all dogs should be Labradors. Just that dogs can be quite stable without being 'game' by any of the criteria that have been put forward on this thread.. . Just as some leading humans would be classed as 'game' by the sort of definitions put forward in this thread, and some would not. Moreover, some very 'game' humans are pretty unstable . . . those are ones I try to avoid.

Edited February 28, 2010 by sandgrubber

[Kavik]

I don't think the opposite of 'game' is relevant. Labradors are bred to be biddable. That has nothing to do with competition or a "very, very strong will to win". It has to do with trying to do what is asked of them and being pretty clever about understanding people.

I'm not saying that all dogs should be Labradors. Just that dogs can be quite stable without being 'game' by any of the criteria that have been put forward on this thread..

Actually, I think you could possibly use 'game' with Labradors. They are also bred to be retrieve fallen game in cold water, adverse weather conditions and to go through brush and uncomfortable terrain to get it. That tenacious determination to retrieve could be called 'game'.