Uk Kennel Club Introduces Mate Select Programme

[sandgrubber]

Are you saying you need permission to do a chilled or frozen semen AI in the UK . . .

Yes, you need to get permission, it can take 6 - 12 months to get this permission as it has to be discussed by comittee at the KC.

I have a puppy here with a spanish sire, her breeder drove to spain to mate the dam. This is one of the uses we have for the Pet Passport scheme.

Crufts BIS Ch Jafrak Phillip Olivier was born after his dam took a trip to France for mating (result was 3 pups)

I guess Australia doesn't have a monopoly on stupid rules. Why on earth would they make AI difficult if they want to increase genetic diversity?

[Jed]

I agree with PomzNZ on this, it worries me that it could be mandatory, and something like that could be the result.

I am still waiting for a decent scientific study with proof that "inbreeding" - to the degree dog breeders do it - causes smaller litters, lack of vigour etc. I haven't been able to find one.

EBV probably works for meat animals, but I have to wonder if it would work with what are essentially pets.

And surely, anyone who is serious about breeding has done the research before they began, looked at dogs, spoken to people, have a good handle on the whole thing?

A program like this is not necessarily going to provide proof of nasty recessive genes which dogs are carrying - and those are the ones which worry me. I don't think we can breed solely for "genetic diversity" and I would still like proof of some of the claims being bandied about so freely.

[becks]

Are you saying you need permission to do a chilled or frozen semen AI in the UK . . .

Yes, you need to get permission, it can take 6 - 12 months to get this permission as it has to be discussed by comittee at the KC.

I have a puppy here with a spanish sire, her breeder drove to spain to mate the dam. This is one of the uses we have for the Pet Passport scheme.

Crufts BIS Ch Jafrak Phillip Olivier was born after his dam took a trip to France for mating (result was 3 pups)

I guess Australia doesn't have a monopoly on stupid rules. Why on earth would they make AI difficult if they want to increase genetic diversity?

They also want both potential mates to have reproduced naturally before considering AI. eg they won't accept that the dog or bitch is 'not dog friendly' as a valid excuse to AI. The KC also don't approve of those mating frames used by some breeds. You could consider these rules as wanting to keep breeds with the ability to be able to breed naturally without the conformation and temperament of a breed preventing it.

You don't need AI to increase genetic diversity.

[centitout]

over here,AI for some breeds that are numerically tiny would be essential for genetic diversity-no t everyone has a spare $10000=15000 to import,and Ai is the alternative.

I am not keen on doing a 20+ hr drive each way to use the dog i want when it could be done with AI,but i do understand about sires being able to serve naturally before being allowed to do the AI route.

[sandgrubber]

Are you saying you need permission to do a chilled or frozen semen AI in the UK . . .

Yes, you need to get permission, it can take 6 - 12 months to get this permission as it has to be discussed by comittee at the KC.

. . . .

I guess Australia doesn't have a monopoly on stupid rules. Why on earth would they make AI difficult if they want to increase genetic diversity?

They also want both potential mates to have reproduced naturally before considering AI. eg they won't accept that the dog or bitch is 'not dog friendly' as a valid excuse to AI. The KC also don't approve of those mating frames used by some breeds. You could consider these rules as wanting to keep breeds with the ability to be able to breed naturally without the conformation and temperament of a breed preventing it.

You don't need AI to increase genetic diversity.

What do they think is wrong with AI?

You don't NEED AI for diversity, but it sure helps, especially where a breed is rare and funds are limited. Say you were breeding a rare Japanese breed in the UK; there were only a few dogs to choose from, and the ones you like best are closely related to your girl (the equivalent situation is widespread in Australia, but we have to go through quarantine as well as international shipping). It would be a damn sight easier to import a few straws of semen than to find someone willing to sell a first rate dog and bring him over. And if you do bring over a top-rate dog and don't mind making him available, you're likely to suddenly find everyone using him . . . with bad consequences for diversity. If you had done AI you could use a dog who is so good the owner is unwilling to let him go . . . and if you didn't like the results, you could repeat the exercise with another dog.

[Jed]

Becks

They also want both potential mates to have reproduced naturally before considering AI. eg they won't accept that the dog or bitch is 'not dog friendly' as a valid excuse to AI. The KC also don't approve of those mating frames used by some breeds. You could consider these rules as wanting to keep breeds with the ability to be able to breed naturally without the conformation and temperament of a breed preventing it.

I basically agree with that.

Britian is a much smaller country, and it would, I think, be practical to travel your bitch to the sire. Yes? I've driven 600k to do a mating.

And I think dogs should mate naturally, I certainly wouldn't be using a dog which is not "dog friendly" to produce pups.

I suppose the rules do keep beeds with the ability to breed naturally.

What would happen if you asked if you could AI for geographical reasons? Or some other "good" reason?

Are you allowed to use dual sires?

[whippets]

I know of a similar program with racing greyhounds here in the early 90's. The lady (I'll just use her initials..BP) had set up the program of proposed matings that gave a % of relation to top winning dogs and successful litters.

Bottom line was the program was considered useless because on paper everything looked good but, as with everything else with mother nature, there are no guarantees. The results were still hit or miss.

I also havn't seen enough evidence to prove that using COI is the way to go.

[becks]

Are you saying you need permission to do a chilled or frozen semen AI in the UK . . .

Yes, you need to get permission, it can take 6 - 12 months to get this permission as it has to be discussed by comittee at the KC.

. . . .

I guess Australia doesn't have a monopoly on stupid rules. Why on earth would they make AI difficult if they want to increase genetic diversity?

They also want both potential mates to have reproduced naturally before considering AI. eg they won't accept that the dog or bitch is 'not dog friendly' as a valid excuse to AI. The KC also don't approve of those mating frames used by some breeds. You could consider these rules as wanting to keep breeds with the ability to be able to breed naturally without the conformation and temperament of a breed preventing it.

You don't need AI to increase genetic diversity.

What do they think is wrong with AI?

You don't NEED AI for diversity, but it sure helps, especially where a breed is rare and funds are limited. Say you were breeding a rare Japanese breed in the UK; there were only a few dogs to choose from, and the ones you like best are closely related to your girl (the equivalent situation is widespread in Australia, but we have to go through quarantine as well as international shipping). It would be a damn sight easier to import a few straws of semen than to find someone willing to sell a first rate dog and bring him over. And if you do bring over a top-rate dog and don't mind making him available, you're likely to suddenly find everyone using him . . . with bad consequences for diversity. If you had done AI you could use a dog who is so good the owner is unwilling to let him go . . . and if you didn't like the results, you could repeat the exercise with another dog.

We could use 'Yogi' as an example of this, the Oz Vizsla who has been very well used at stud since he arrived here, so yes, if the caretaker of the dog has decided to let everyone use the dog, you will get a bottle neck in the breed. We have this too with Awesomes In The Mood, a p/s mini imported to the UK and is behind pretty much every p/s included in the 'reputable breeders' bloodlines. The UK sees dogs being sent to and from Japan, Dacs, Poodles, Mini Schnauzers etc etc. and there are a few breeders now of the Jindo.

In my breed we do, like to share bloodlines. I've sent a dog abroad, I've been offered a few dogs on short term lease or longer stays under various terms. Adam, an american bred champion has spent time here and is now in australia. I have friends in Iceland who also have a month quarentine for any dog entering the country, they are doing well to bring in new blood and getting some quality dogs on loan, they are not relying on AI to do this for them.

The very well known Bouvier Kanix Zulu was born in quarentine (before we had the pet passports) after his dam was sent abroad for mating. Various other breeds have chosen this option, I think top American cockers have also been produced after such a trip (maybe Ellz can recall their names).

Breeds like mine have a bad reputation for AI being successful, so it could be an expensive waste of money anyway.

If money is that tight, AI is the only option for breeding your chosen rare breed, maybe you should have looked at the choice of breed more closely before getting involved in breeding it??

Becks

They also want both potential mates to have reproduced naturally before considering AI. eg they won't accept that the dog or bitch is 'not dog friendly' as a valid excuse to AI. The KC also don't approve of those mating frames used by some breeds. You could consider these rules as wanting to keep breeds with the ability to be able to breed naturally without the conformation and temperament of a breed preventing it.

I basically agree with that.

Britian is a much smaller country, and it would, I think, be practical to travel your bitch to the sire. Yes? I've driven 600k to do a mating.

And I think dogs should mate naturally, I certainly wouldn't be using a dog which is not "dog friendly" to produce pups.

I suppose the rules do keep beeds with the ability to breed naturally.

What would happen if you asked if you could AI for geographical reasons? Or some other "good" reason?

Are you allowed to use dual sires?

I don't know of anyone who has asked about a dual sire litter.

For a geographical reason, it may be acceptable BUT you would have to prove why that dog was so much more desireable to use over more accessable dogs.

There was a famous Golden Retriever litter born several years ago now, the sire had been dead for 20 years. Pups went on to do well in the ring, Camrose Goldies?? I think.

[centitout]

Dont really like being told to bugger off out of a breed because i cant afford to repeatedly import at around $10000+ each time.My breed have always been low in numbers ,so seems like everybody is in the same boat.

Bit rude really-cant afford to import-dont deserve to be a breeder,how about we just let the breed die right out.

I am working with a few people who i hope to import a bitch together,but the problem is it has to be an ongoing thing/not just a once off,cause i've seen how that isnt so good long term.

And it does take considerable time to develop contacts that will trust you with a o/s dog to start with,sometimes years,so what do yo udo in the meantime?

Edited March 2, 2010 by centitout

[becks]

Dont really like being told to bugger off out of a breed because i cant afford to repeatedly import at around $10000+ each time.My breed have always been low in numbers ,so seems like everybody is in the same boat.

Bit rude really-cant afford to import-dont deserve to be a breeder,how about we just let the breed die right out.

I am working with a few people who i hope to import a bitch together,but the problem is it has to be an ongoing thing/not just a once off,cause i've seen how that isnt so good long term.

And it does take considerable time to develop contacts that will trust you with a o/s dog to start with,sometimes years,so what do yo udo in the meantime?

Buggar off out of a breed? I didn't say that.

To me it is the same principle of starting to build a house and only having enough cash to do the foundations. Go into it knowing what you can afford and the rules you have to work within. It's no one elses fault if you can't afford the brickwork if you chose to do something outside of what you can afford.

[sandgrubber]

I can see being worried about AI in a breed where natural matings are a problem. Eg, I understand that many Bassets have trouble cause the boy is too heavy for the girl, and I know of one girl who has to be AI'd every time cause she'd like as kill the boy. I don't like the idea of a breed that can only reproduce via AI.

But where distance is the only obstacle to a natural mating (or perhaps the death of the dog), what's the problem?

[SparkyTansy]

Upon speaking to some friends on a UK list in my breed I was under the impression that AI matings have become a little more more acceptable lately?

There seems to be a great deal of people though still closed to the idea of an AI vs Natural mating, and will sooner choose amore geographically acceptable dog over perhaps a dog more out of reach even if that dog might be better for the breed. I totally get that the rule of a bitch having had a successful natural mating is required, and I think this is good. I believe (and correct me if i am wrong becks) that if the bitch (maybe the dog too?) has had two successful natual matings, it can be used for AI? Is this just for dead sires?

When i asked the question, it was more in relation to sires who are dead but semen is available. I had many ask the question, why go backwards in a breed?

Back to the OP, i find this database interesting, but I can see that there are way too many factors missing. These factors will not stop the responsible experienced breeder from doing their research into whats missing, but what is to stop someone breeding fifi with fido because it's suggested they'll get healthy pups, without considering the phenotype of the two dogs? What if Fido is 3 times the size of fifi and this isn't taken into account? What if the litter of pups is healthy, but mum has a ceasarian or dies as a result of the poor choice of mating? there are just too many variables to make something like this work. No way would i trust a computer to tell me what I can learn by studying pedigrees, individual dogs and their health.

Question... i know that it could mean specific breed health tests, but if vets start recording operations etc, cant this be classed as a breach of confidentiality?

[Steve]

Its just another PR stunt. Firstly any of us right now have the ability to duck into a free website and take a look at the breeding COI to see how much genetic diversity there will be in a particular mating.Or of course we can download a fee breed mate pedigree system with an inbuilt Breeding COI calculator.

Then with EBV they intend to take things which are known to be a problem in a particular breed and have those listed as clear and not related entered as good mates.Sounds good doesnt it - except if for example - they decide on EBV for hips what about the rest of the dog?

While everyone is going after good EBV hips something else will be showing as a potentially bigger problem. You get what you select for and what you dont take notice of you loose.

The biggest issue is that it would only work if every tiny little thing conceiveable that needs to be taken into account by a breeder is entered into the data base on every dog. Its all well and good to use EBV on sheep or cattle because they dont need to consider temperament,and how its going to cope [and the owner] sleeping on someone's bed.They usually only use it to sleect for a handful of desireable traits such as high milk yield , multiple births etc. Dogs have over 100,000 genes and only a flesh and blood breeder can make the decisions they need to based on the whole dog not just a bit of it or how unrelated it is. Sometimes, depending on what you are working on being clear for one thing or another is more important than how closely related they are or are not.Ill betchya that give it a couple of generations after the computer program has decided on the best mate for a majority of a breed the gene pool will be smaller not bigger because fewer dogs wil be used for breeding and fewer dogs with better EBV will be used - give it a couple of generations and they will all be related more so than they are now. Bring in a new boy from another country with a great EBV for hips and he's not related to any Aussie bitches. He'll get top score EBV and be selected to mate all of our bitches - less related and high EBV for hips and they advise us against over using stud dogs.

[becks]

ST - I think it is only 1 natural, successful breeding needed before the dog can be considered, this is for alive dogs.

I wouldn't see using a dead sire as going backwards in a breed, sometimes a backstep can be useful to return a feature that may have been lost.

Steve, surely as the pups are registered the 'new blood, import' would become a less favourable sire for furture litters?

[mersonmalinois]

I wouldn't see using a dead sire as going backwards in a breed, sometimes a backstep can be useful to return a feature that may have been lost.

I agree with this 100%. Often traits/character are lost or an influential line fades away and using old frozen semen is a way to bring those exceptional traits back. Sometimes we scratch our heads as breeders wondering how in the world we can move forward with what is currently available in stud dogs. It's nice to have options available.

[SparkyTansy]

I wouldn't see using a dead sire as going backwards in a breed, sometimes a backstep can be useful to return a feature that may have been lost.

I agree with this 100%. Often traits/character are lost or an influential line fades away and using old frozen semen is a way to bring those exceptional traits back. Sometimes we scratch our heads as breeders wondering how in the world we can move forward with what is currently available in stud dogs. It's nice to have options available.

I also agree - however there are those in some circles who wouldn't agree it would seem... perhaps it is those who have not been as open to the possibilities of AI and frozen semen.