Agility Training Question

[ness]

There are a few people who compete in agility here so thought I'd post this question. I am having a few problems with Kenz wanting to offer a 2o/2o WHENEVER there is a bit of contact equipment in her general vicinity. This includes taking herself over to it when given half a chance. The problem I have is I am not sure how to "deal" with such a situation. I don't want her offering the position and then not giving her a release cue because I think that in part could possibly undermine the behavior but by giving her a release cue you are still in effect rewarding the dog for having put themselves there in the first place. She is still in the green dog learning stage of the behavior and we only have access to the dogwalk every second week at training so I do tend to make use of it when we can get it.

Does anybody have any thoughts or views on the matter.

I have included a video training clip from last night -

[J...]

Just covered this at the Lynda Orton Hill seminar.

You didn't ask her to get on the equipment so don't release her to get off. Let her figure out that she only gets rewarded for it when you ask for it. You've built up a lot of value for the contact equipment so build up value with you to balance it out.

[ness]

Thanks for your comments Jess.

My older girl has very average point and pray contacts and I have promised myself Kenz will not have the same. In part I think her putting herself on the contact was part of confusion as it was only when I lost what I wanted to do that she would offer that. I also think part of my issue was indecision about what I was wanting to practice and when I was intending on rewarding.

Edited February 25, 2010 by ness

[J...]

But by letting her come off the equipment without a cue does that not build habit to having them break when they want ;) .

No, but by releasing her from the contact when you didn't ask her to get on you are effectively rewarding the behaviour. Go and get her off the contact and ask her to continue doing what you asked her to do, not what she wants to do.

My older girl has very average point and pray contacts and I have promised myself Kenz will not have the same.

Same here, in fact I am half way through completely retraining my 4 yo's contacts. BUT I am now putting a heap of work into my 9 mo's contacts so that there is plenty of work there that shouldn't be an issue with it when it comes to competition. If I have a doubt that she doesn't understand her job then I haven't done a good enough job of training her. If I have to bandaid her in any way then I'll know I haven't done a good enough job of training her.

In part I think her putting herself on the contact was part of confusion as it was only when I lost what I wanted to do that she would offer that. I also think part of my issue was indecision about what I was wanting to practice and when I was intending on rewarding.

Done heaps of this over the past few days as well - what's your training plan? What is your criteria and what are you going to reward and not reward? Planning planning and more planning, especially since you have so little exposure to equipment. Sounds harsh yes but it made a hell of a lot of sense to me.

I can't wait for the next 2 days, which I'm literally about to head off for.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Jess.

[ness]

If you do a write up of what you learned Jess I would really appreciate having a read. I am having real issues from going from dog can do individual equipment/small sequences to running a course. I struggle to work out what I should be doing on the planning front. I can work out plans for working on equipment skills but when it comes to jumping and handling I am really lost.

[Vickie]

I can see a few issues here. You know I am blunt, so I will just be my normal self & tell it like I see it...am happy yo edit if you feel it is inappropriate.

1. she is nowhere near ready to do a course of that length & complexity.

2. she seems to understand her contact position but I question whether she truly understands the release.

3. each time you make her go back and redo a part of the course that "she" got wrong, her confidence in your handling is reduced.

4. your frustration is evident at times & she reacts to it with stress behaviours.

5. you need to reward A LOT more than you are.

The reason she is offering contacts is not because she loves them so much based on a reward history. Each time she offered a contact in that clip it is because it seemed like the easier option to her. She is defaulting to what she knows b/c it is safe.

If I were running her on this course, I would be breaking it down a lot. 3-4 obstacles at a time & heavily rewarding for enthusiam & confidence. It would also allow you to be more timely in your handling & get in better positions to give her the best possible opportunity to successfully do the more complex parts.

[ness]

Was hoping you would come along Vickie . Reason I posted as I am really not sure what I am doing with her. We get nothing in the way of instruction/feedback - its basically just a run the dogs over the equipment and sometimes its hard to see what is happening when you are in the middle of running your dog. There are only 3 of us running dogs at 500 in the trialling group and only really 2 handlers running dogs in the smaller group. We are basically left to do as we please which does make it difficult. And if its saying anything at all I am probably one of the more experienced handlers in the group and there are a few others who come but they have been away the last few weeks ;) and so last night I was the only one running left with a 500 dog who has its masters titles.

No need to edit anything you have to say as I am in full agreement with all of it.

[Kavik]

I would do shorter and simpler sequences. She didn't look confident in working at that lateral distance with the jumps after the obstacle descrimination as she pulled in to you. I would make it easier for her to get the win.

[ness]

Yep I guess that was a case of no real plan in mind and lets go with the flow . I will make it clear that isn't entirely the way all my training sessions go and part of the aim of the video was to get some contact stuff so I could have a look. When it came to running the jumping course I ran it with a much more definite strategy. So I would go back and reward start lines/proof her SLS. Proof her lead outs. We worked on breaking it down and rewarding when necessary. She actually had no problems with lateral distance in the Open Jumping course that was set up (admittedly it was a simple arc distance challenge) but she handled it well.

[Kavik]

I find when I am unsure of what I want to do and my handling shows that that Kaos is equally uncertain When I am sure and confident in what I am doing, Kaos's performance is much better and flowing and fast

With the distance, maybe she is just not used to having other equipment like the dogwalk and tunnel being between you and her. I haven't done much obstacle descrimination work or distance work around obstacle descriminations with Kaos as he was getting confused and slowing down a lot when I did.

[Vickie]

Yep I guess that was a case of no real plan in mind and lets go with the flow .

well next time you feel like that, slap yourself & stay at home! .

It is very easy in a club situation to do what everyone else is doing & focus on being able to get from obstacle 1 to obstacle 20. I used to see it week after week, so long as people could complete the whole course in some manner they seemed happy. Not only does it not improve your overall performance, it builds no skills & can cause damage to your teamwork.

Training is about training. Much better to train/build to a brilliant set of 6 obstacles than a crappy 20.

I am also fully aware when I train that I am usually training myself more than I am training my dogs. I have made sure my girls have a good solid foundation, so when something stumps us, it stumps me. It is my responsibility to think ahead & work out exactly what I need to do to allow them to perform as they have been trained.

[Vickie]

I haven't done much obstacle descrimination work or distance work around obstacle descriminations with Kaos as he was getting confused and slowing down a lot when I did.

You will find that a large percentage of discrimination and distance is about setting the line correctly before you attempt it.

For many challenges, the challenge all but disappears if you set the correct line first...and then there are ones that are just downright impossible without a good set of trained skills ... and sometimes there are ones that are impossible even with trained skills .

[ness]

Yep Vickie that is what generally happens at our club. Mostly people just do stuff as its put up and I do fall into that trap a bit too.

I guess my problem and hence my post a little while ago about what skills to include is that I just don't know enough to be able to set a sequence to work on and know what I am doing . I can set a sequence but it usually doesn't really teach the dog anything.

[Vickie]

You should go & look at that clip again and make a list of each thing that you don't consider your ideal performance & then tell us why you think it happened.

I think your answers will surprise you & you will learn a lot from the exercise.

[poodlefan]

You should go & look at that clip again and make a list of each thing that you don't consider your ideal performance & then tell us why you think it happened.

I think your answers will surprise you & you will learn a lot from the exercise.

I'm with Vickie. I think the dog was taking her cues from you. I saw a handler who seemed half hearted most of the time and that wasn't giving clear signals to the dog. If I were to pick the point where you gave up, it would be when she missed the jump after you front crossed.. your body language pulled her across the face of it. Until that point you were a committed team.

After the table, note the first cue to the jump... it hardly existed and she missed it. When she didn't know what to do, she went with what gets her rewarded.. she headed for the contact.

One piece of advice I'd give is to stop physically guiding her on courses when you lose your way. You did it pretty much every time you lost focus and it will get you DQ'd in the trialling ring quick smart. Looks to me like that the physical guiding is happening without you realising it most of the time.

You've got a dog that is reading your body language really well. Run like you mean it, give clear directions and I think you'll see her rise to meet your performance. If you go like hell, give verbal encouragement and be certain about what you want her to do, I'd expect to see a big lift in her drive on the course.

Clean Run magazine is THE best source of sets. There are also some great sets books you can buy on their website.

Edited February 25, 2010 by poodlefan

[ness]

Hmm ok I am known for being super critical so here we go with the list -

1. I know without a question her SLS release needs some proofing. She is getting into a slight habit of going when I lift my arm in there air rather than waiting for her release cue - but thats on the work in progress list. Probably not clear on the video and I can't remember if she came early or not in that particular run. Bit of over handling on the first tunnel both entrance to and exit from.

<thats all really an aside>

Ok first bit when she ran past the second bar she wasn't committed to the bar before I dropped my signal and possibly rotated my shoulder and while Ness would have taken the bar in a similar circumstance Kenz actually did the appropriate thing which was come off the bar because she wasn't committed to it.

Not sure why that bar came down - I will point out there was an edit because she thought she would then go birdie chasing . Its the first time she has done so while working so will have to get on top of that. I also guess I take having her focused on me for granted now and since I have never really had issues with her in the past I might have just taken it for granted a fraction to much.

Jump/tunnel (which was suppose to be dogwalk) - took it that she would be walk obsessed because she likes to put herself on contacts and thats just a lack of training.

Dogwalk contact - hmm she wasn't straight and she was looking where I was and then of course I made it worse by then rewarding her with her head crooked rather than coming in from the other side and rewarding with head position straight.

Table - hmmm so much for an automatic drop that I wanted and I seem to be rewarding half criteria rather than insisting on the standard I want.

She ran around the bar off the table because she thought about going back to chase the bird .

See-saw wasn't bad - bit slower then I want but she raced up it the first time and promptly ran straight off the end so guess that is why she was slightly more cautious the second time.

The next little bit of sequence with the jumps into the tunnel I thought was nice and I shouldn't have expected her to continue over the bar so the coming back to me on the otherside of the dogwalk is a lack of training. Having said that I would like her a bit more obstacle focussed as she is I think a bit to handler focused.

That was a definite lack of rewarding her when she got it right and getting frustrated when she made a mistake and pushing my luck with what I was getting before rewarding and then having her mess up so she wasn't being rewarded. Contacts are a work in progress. A lot comes down to the lack of planning and having a clear aim in mind for a particular sequence.

[Vickie]

Here is what I saw:

0.03 Startline, she is releasing on movement

0.06 You gave no turn cue and wited till she was landing before you told her to turn

0.07 You bent over, touched her & did not move through your cross

0.09 You bent over and waited for her to come out of the tunnel (this would have been a good spot to get ahead a bit to prepare yourself for the next bit).

0.11 no turn cue till she had landed

0.11 bent over, very jerky arm movement

0.13 over rotated + very jerky arm movement (which is what imo pulled her off)

0.15 another very jerky arm movement

0.17 Jerky arm movement causes bar to drop. For some reason, you chose the dropped bar as your first opportunity to reward her.

0.21 If I wanted my dogs to take the tunnel, I would give them the exact line & body language you gave her

0.27 bending over + as above

OK, I can't be bothered doing any more. At this point she had lost a lot of confidence & you had given up so it is hard to analyse objectively.

I think that you need to recognise that at least up until this point, I can't actually see Kenzie doing anything wrong. All of the points I have made above relate to handling, not to building skills in a young dog. I am almost certain that in this exact scenario, my dogs would make the same choices as Kenzie did (well I hope they would).

I was hoping that when you analysed the course, you would have recognised at least some of the above. You saw all these things as a training issue, I see them as a handling issue.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Vickie

[caffy]

Here is what I saw:

0.03 Startline, she is releasing on movement

0.06 You gave no turn cue and wited till she was landing before you told her to turn

0.07 You bent over, touched her & did not move through your cross

0.09 You bent over and waited for her to come out of the tunnel (this would have been a good spot to get ahead a bit to prepare yourself for the next bit).

0.11 no turn cue till she had landed

0.11 bent over, very jerky arm movement

0.13 over rotated + very jerky arm movement (which is what imo pulled her off)

0.15 another very jerky arm movement

0.17 Jerky arm movement causes bar to drop. For some reason, you chose the dropped bar as your first opportunity to reward her.

0.21 If I wanted my dogs to take the tunnel, I would give them the exact line & body language you gave her

0.27 bending over + as above

OK, I can't be bothered doing any more. At this point she had lost a lot of confidence & you had given up so it is hard to analyse objectively.

I think that you need to recognise that at least up until this point, I can't actually see Kenzie doing anything wrong. All of the points I have made above relate to handling, not to building skills in a young dog. I am almost certain that in this exact scenario, my dogs would make the same choices as Kenzie did (well I hope they would).

I was hoping that when you analysed the course, you would have recognised at least some of the above. You saw all these things as a training issue, I see them as a handling issue.

I agree with Vickie.

Ness, if your issue is lack of access to contacts, then guess what I’d be concentrating on in training at club? You could’ve achieved more in your session if you just worked on the dogwalk…having the tunnel underneath is part of proofing it. I would’ve been ecstatic to get to club and see that tunnel there…wow, I get to proof my dogwalk!

Even at home, I would use a long plank and aim to get consistent speed on the whole plank…no creeping. And then I’d go to club and work on that.

I’m sure you could put some jumps up off to the side of the full sequences and reward tight front crosses. Video that and look at your cues and YOU work out how to tighten them. Fine tune your rear crosses in a club setting. Until you work out how to cue turns and how to cue acceleration then I wouldn’t be doing full sequences

[ness]

Ah ok maybe that is where I was wrong - I presumed handling = building skills so guess I am probably lumping it into the same category or maybe my handling still suck and Ness just happens to get me out of situations due to experience . I can see what your saying though and certainly can see what your saying about them being handling issues now. I guess I just assumed it was a two way thing which needed work.

Caffy I would usually do less other stuff then I did and the video is really an inaccurate snap shot of training. I was trying to lump together things when I was able to get somebody to video. I wanted some video firstly to see if I thought she understood her contact behavior and secondly to see what I am going to do about her jump height and whether I will run her at 500 or 400. I was hoping to run and video something at 400 but didn't get a chance last night. The other 2 turns we did on that particular course were to run jump/contact sequences or to do a bit of table practice and I did a few SLS's with the first couple of jumps. So nope I wasn't quite as ambitious as it appears.

We then went over to the open jumping course which was set on 400 where I did some more SLS practice. We worked some BJ into weaving as she was having issues with the weaving entrance and actually staying in the poles so I rewarded that. She did a lovely 7 bar arc and I rewarded at the end of that. I then wanted to FC in a particular spot but that failed me miserably and in hindsight it wasn't the correct spot so after seeing it not work the first time we worked the end part of that course with a RC into a tunnel. So again maybe 5 or 6 obstacles max and pretty simple following sequences. I later tried her again at 500 but we had plenty of bars down and she wasn't running nearly as well so think that helped my conclusion about what height I will run her at.

As for working at home - we have a short plank I work with, some jumps and weavers but can only do jumping and weaving if I take the gear to a park. Well aside from 1 jump work and lead outs which I have been known to practice in the yard.

[caffy]

Caffy I would usually do less other stuff then I did and the video is really an inaccurate snap shot of training. I was trying to lump together things when I was able to get somebody to video. I wanted some video firstly to see if I thought she understood her contact behavior and secondly to see what I am going to do about her jump height and whether I will run her at 500 or 400. I was hoping to run and video something at 400 but didn't get a chance last night. The other 2 turns we did on that particular course were to run jump/contact sequences or to do a bit of table practice and I did a few SLS's with the first couple of jumps. So nope I wasn't quite as ambitious as it appears.

So you compromised your training to take video?

All goes back to planning your session me thinks.