Tilly Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) This topic has probably been done to death but the search function never seems to work for me ... I am looking at enrolling my youngest into an obedience / agility class in April (next class starts then) ... but they use clicker training - something I am interested in learning more about but at this stage I don't know too much about it. I have spoken to the instructor and she gave me some links on u-tube so we could get started ... and I sort of understand the principles. I will probably end up going back and seeing them again this weekend. So rather then give my boy his bowl of mince/veges I have been getting him familiar with the clicker/reward process. I click, reward, click reward etc ... for the first couple of days he would sits intentently watching at me waiting for the click and reward. This morning I waiting a bit between the click / reward so he wanders off and paces around the yard ... when he returned to me I was clicking/rewarding. Then I noticed he started to repeat the process ... comes to me, gets his click/reward and then does a circle of the yard and returns for his click/reward and then circles the yard again. I have been working on his recall so I started calling him to me and was rewarding the coming to me. But where do we go from here ... Is there any good websites that can explain it in a step by step process for stupid people like me .... Some of the videos I have watched were a little confusing ... some clicked, the dog offered up a behaviour and then they clicked and rewarded. I thought the click was a reward for doing the right behaviour. How do I encourage/shape the required behaviours? Edited February 24, 2010 by Tilly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) Some of the videos I have watched were a little confusing ... some clicked, the dog offered up a behaviour and then they clicked and rewarded. I thought the click was a reward for doing the right behaviour. How do I encourage/shape the required behaviours? To shape a behaviour using a clicker, you have to click and treat every little step of the process. The dog isn't going to know what behaviour you want from the start so if you don't click/treat to let them know they are making progress, they will give up. Say for example you want your dog to put it's paw or nose on some sort of target on the floor - if your dog looks at the target C/T, repeat until they understand well looking at this thing seems to be what is required... then you up the criteria bit by bit until they are actually doing the behaviour you set out to shape. The process gets your dog to think and offer behaviours as they try to work out what it is you want. I'm probably not explaining it right but I'm sure someone else will be able to explain it better! ETA: http://www.shirleychong.com/ is a great resource for clicker training and shaping behaviours. I used her method to shape the dumbell retrieve and it does work! Edited February 24, 2010 by RubyStar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Right on RubyStar Shirley Chong's site is great. Another good one is Sue Ailsby's levels http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Leve...LevelsBook.html Some of the videos I have watched were a little confusing ... some clicked, the dog offered up a behaviour and then they clicked and rewarded. I thought the click was a reward for doing the right behaviour. How do I encourage/shape the required behaviours? To shape a behaviour using a clicker, you have to click and treat every little step of the process. The dog isn't going to know what behaviour you want from the start so if you don't click/treat to let them know they are making progress, they will give up. Say for example you want your dog to put it's paw or nose on some sort of target on the floor - if your dog looks at the target C/T, repeat until they understand well looking at this thing seems to be what is required... then you up the criteria bit by bit until they are actually doing the behaviour you set out to shape. The process gets your dog to think and offer behaviours as they try to work out what it is you want. I'm probably not explaining it right but I'm sure someone else will be able to explain it better! ETA: http://www.shirleychong.com/ is a great resource for clicker training and shaping behaviours. I used her method to shape the dumbell retrieve and it does work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prydenjoy Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 This morning I waiting a bit between the click / reward so he wanders off and paces around the yard ... when he returned to me I was clicking/rewarding. Then I noticed he started to repeat the process ... comes to me, gets his click/reward and then does a circle of the yard and returns for his click/reward and then circles the yard again. I couldn't help but laugh when I read this, you have a very clever dog and have effectively shaped your first trick - Congratulations!! It's so funny, because you don't quite understand it yet, but your dog does!! That's what I love about clicker training, it's hard to really get it "wrong". Just look for a behavior (or part of a behavior) you want, click and treat (consistently) until the dog is offering the behavior freely, then put in on cue and a variable schedule of reinforcement. Both websites are very good, read up and good luck! Just remember to keep having fun, sounds like your dog will become clicker savvy very quickly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaxD Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I thought the click was a reward for doing the right behaviour. I'm a newbie to clicker training too but just remember that the click is to mark the correct behaviour and the treat is the reward. You could also take a look at www.clickerlessons.com.. You can download the sheets in a printable format to carry around with you. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 This morning I waiting a bit between the click / reward so he wanders off and paces around the yard ... when he returned to me I was clicking/rewarding. Then I noticed he started to repeat the process ... comes to me, gets his click/reward and then does a circle of the yard and returns for his click/reward and then circles the yard again. ;) I couldn't help but laugh when I read this, you have a very clever dog and have effectively shaped your first trick - Congratulations!! It's so funny, because you don't quite understand it yet, but your dog does!! That's what I love about clicker training, it's hard to really get it "wrong". Just look for a behavior (or part of a behavior) you want, click and treat (consistently) until the dog is offering the behavior freely, then put in on cue and a variable schedule of reinforcement. Both websites are very good, read up and good luck! Just remember to keep having fun, sounds like your dog will become clicker savvy very quickly :D The same thought struck me. Seems the dog thinks he was being rewarded for doing the circle of the yard. Like a good dog, he repeated the behaviour which was being reinforced. To the OP - great suggestions as to resources. Couple more thoughts - small steps are key - you'll see how that works in the Shirley Chong Retrieve one. Seems like you might have made the delay too long. In the early stages it's good to keep the click and treat pretty close IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I thought the click was a reward for doing the right behaviour. I'm a newbie to clicker training too but just remember that the click is to mark the correct behaviour and the treat is the reward. You could also take a look at www.clickerlessons.com.. You can download the sheets in a printable format to carry around with you. Good luck! Good pick up, I overlooked the way it was worded the first time round JaxD is right, the click isn't the reward, it's just a marker to say yes that is what I wanted and your reward is coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilly Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 We were working on nose touch this morning ... and he was getting it within about 3 attempts. He is a very fast learner ... unfortunately if he doesn't quite get it right (didn't quite touch so didn't get the click/reward) ... he is resorting to circling the yard and then coming back to try again. Lets hope he is not associated the running around the yard in a circle as part of the nose touch. I must say it is the happiest I have seen him when it comes to training ... his tail is wagging and he looks happy. Even when he is working in drive he doesn't look like he is enjoying training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Uta bindel said that it is important to "charge" the clicker (just click and treat for nothing) very often and in varied locations (out, in the house, give the treat, throw the treat, for looking at you, for looking away etc) so they don't just associate it with one action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 We were working on nose touch this morning ... and he was getting it within about 3 attempts. He is a very fast learner ... unfortunately if he doesn't quite get it right (didn't quite touch so didn't get the click/reward) ... he is resorting to circling the yard and then coming back to try again. It's known as "first order learning", the behaviour they learned first tends to be repeated if they don't know what else they should do. You've got a doozy! Don't worry, you can sort of take it as his sign that he doesn't know exactly what he is supposed to do, which is YOUR SIGN to make it a little easier for him and lower your criteria. Or you can move to a smaller space where he can't run around. It's a trap for new players, the learner gets something right very quickly and the trainer makes the assumption that the learner now understands it. The temptation is to stay at that criteria (touch the target) but the best thing you can do is to accept lesser approximations (e.g click when he gets close to the target). When he is really clear that he has to do "something" with the target (he will stop running circles), then you can stop reinforcing the weakest responses. A good rule of thumb - when you are in the early stages of shaping a new behaviour you should be clicking and treating every 2-3 seconds. If you can't do that your criterion is probably too high. Stop and figure out what a good lower criterion might be. In this case, "jabbing the nose towards the target, actual touch not necessary." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilly Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 We tried again later in the front yard while he was on leash ... and he got it no problem. I am wondering if the fly's in the backyard are a bit distracting (he loves to chase them). But I will now need to get a new clicker as he decided to try out out clicker training for himself ... and broke it. I was in the bedroom when I heard the clicker ... thankfully I have the pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prydenjoy Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Is he allowed inside at all? When starting out shaping a new behavior I always do it in the loungeroom, kitty locked away, other dog outside, so that there are no distractions. Otherwise it might help to try a time of day when there are less flies buzzing around, it is mighty hard to focus on learning something new when there are a lot of distractions! Pity about the broken clicker, my clicker is like gold to me as nowhere in town sells them, if something happened to it we'd have to go clicker free until I could order in a new one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 As for videos, I like this trainer, we use her videos in the Slow Dane Challenge in the Dane Thread: http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup#p/u/45/wgjMtYvZIIY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilly Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 I heard somewhere about using a metal lid as a clicker ... you know the ones that pop when you open them the first time. I had a smallish one so I used that as his clicker this afternoon for his training session - it actually worked really well. Not long after I was doing a bit of a clean out of the car and found another clicker ... I was sure I had brought one ages ago but I could never find it. Tomorrow I will continue to work on the recharge and touch ... depending how he goes I might give him a day or two and then start to work on his sit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conztruct Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 But where do we go from here ... Is there any good websites that can explain it in a step by step process for stupid people like me .... Hi Tilly, I found this book really helpful - it's about positive training using a clicker. It's also very easy to read and is in very plain everyday language (which made it perfect for me.....). http://www.amazon.com/When-Pigs-Fly-Traini...e/dp/1929242441 I hope the link works for you - my apologies if I've messed it up, but even if you copy and paste in your browser it should work. All the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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