Tug Of War Games

[corvus]

Just curious to know what people think would happen if they don't start and end tug games themselves? Control is a slippery thing, and can exist on a continuum... It can also be in the eye of the beholder.

it's part of teaching the dog self control.

Well, it can be. If you choose to use it in that fashion. There are loads of different ways you can teach a dog self control inside and outside of tug games. But the question remains, what do you think would happen if you didn't teach the dog self control in a tug game through having an out and an engage cue? I know what would happen with Erik, and it's the exact reason why self control exercises are a part of everything we do with him.

Surely you can see the benefit in having command words to start and stop the game?

Yeah, but I didn't ask about the benefit, did I? I asked what you think would happen if you didn't have that "control". Like Aidan, I also have a dog that doesn't have an out and gets to win by taking the toy away. I haven't found I've needed to teach him one, so I haven't. I don't have any troubles getting the tug off him, and he's a tugging fiend. He gets to take the toy periodically, but most of the time he drops it pretty quickly and comes back to me. He likes it better when I tug with him most of the time.

Erik does have a start tug cue, for the same reason self control exercises are part of everything we do with him. And because it's useful to get his attention. And because I like watching the effect it has on him. It's fun. ;)

Ending the game on your terms can also help increase drive and desire for the game, as opposed to letting the dog end the game when it's had enough.

But that's drive building, and it's a benefit. I was asking what people think will happen if they don't finish a game on their terms for control reasons. Anyone that plays tug with their dog ought to be in control by virtue of the fact that they can walk away at any time. I know what happens with Erik without an end of game signal, but again, it's the same thing as what happens with everything in his life if he's not given clear instructions. He's not always a fun dog when he's being creative. ;)

[Vickie]

Just curious to know what people think would happen if they don't start and end tug games themselves? Control is a slippery thing, and can exist on a continuum... It can also be in the eye of the beholder.

If I didn't start it, I don't think it would happen,

if I didn't end it, it probably wouldn't end

& if I didn't control it a bit, I would have holes all through my hands.

[sas]

Tug of war is a fun game that can teach the dog plenty if played correctly.

I reccomend this video for those who aren't sure of which way to go and how to tug correctly: http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup#p/c/F0.../24/x9mPoWuvnLg

[alpha bet]

Once again I work different to many here.

I don't teach tug of war.... nor do I encourage my clients to......

However,

I am working with family pets (i.e. people who have access to lots of kiddies).... not people doing dog sports.

A family pet should understand that they can play tug of war with another dog but not with a human. You teach a pet this game and he may start playing it with the kiddies..... then who wins.....

And before you all jump down my throat and say that your dogs are great family pets anyway.... it becomes something that as Responsible Dog Owners that you have to manage..... to ensure that kids don't become involved.

Same applies to other dog games, such as wrestling (play fighting) or Chase me games....

[mantis]

I don't think there's anything wrong with playing tug. But I think you should also teach a release command. For me, playing tug with my dog is about having fun, but also still being in control and being able to end the game on my terms.

That is the thing, you can't let the dog win all the time, as then they think they are the stronger. Kenny loves playing tug of war, even though he weighs nearly as much as me, I make sure I win most of the time, so he knows who's the Alpha & if I think he is being to dominant, I tell him to "drop it", which he does.

TOW is only bad if you let the dog always win.

[laeral]

I teach tug to my girl.

I also teach her to only tug on command and to out the tug on command.

The reason I teach commands is for control of the game. As Vickie said - 'if I didn't control it a bit, I would have holes all through my hands'. Before we got some control into her game of tug it was pretty alarming and painful. We ended many a session with bloody hands, to the point I had to wear gloves. By adding control we have eliminated this, but she still gets the reward of a game of tug.

I also teach her to only tug on command. Mica will only tug on her toy when I say she can. I can walk around her quite happily with her tug toy in my hand, wave it around her face etc. Unless I give her the command to work, she wont even react to it. It is a dead toy so to speak. This adds an elemant of safety and control in that even if a child was in my backyard and playing with her tug toy, she knows not to touch it. She doesnt even get excited at the sight of it without a command.

Edited February 24, 2010 by laeral

[Odin-Genie]

This is the other thing I meant to mention earlier. Everyone I know who has trained their dog to work with a tug in prey drive, has a dog who sees them (the handler) as a big part of the game too. When they let go of the tug toy or throw it for the dog to get, the dog brings it back to them because without the handler the game doesn't exist.

So even though you could let go of the toy so the dog could leave with it, the dog isn't interested in having the toy on it's own.

That's exactly the case with my dogs. They love to play tug and know to release when I tell them to do so. However, if I was to let them have the tug toy, they wouldn't want it. They want to play with me, not with the toy.

And my dogs are total family pets. I don't do any dog sports with them.

[Odin-Genie]

Double post!!!

Edited February 24, 2010 by Odin-Genie

[tarope]

I've always played tug o war with mine, its a great game and they love it except my GSD boy as he has never liked it because he's a big sook. ;)

[huski]

Once again I work different to many here.

I don't teach tug of war.... nor do I encourage my clients to......

However,

I am working with family pets (i.e. people who have access to lots of kiddies).... not people doing dog sports.

A family pet should understand that they can play tug of war with another dog but not with a human. You teach a pet this game and he may start playing it with the kiddies..... then who wins.....

And before you all jump down my throat and say that your dogs are great family pets anyway.... it becomes something that as Responsible Dog Owners that you have to manage..... to ensure that kids don't become involved.

Same applies to other dog games, such as wrestling (play fighting) or Chase me games....

IMO the issues you've mention only become a problem if you don't train drive games like tug appropriately.

If playing tug is about the handler as much as it is about the toy, and you train self control with a start command, a kid taking the tug toy shouldn't matter.

[sas]

I don't think there's anything wrong with playing tug. But I think you should also teach a release command. For me, playing tug with my dog is about having fun, but also still being in control and being able to end the game on my terms.

That is the thing, you can't let the dog win all the time, as then they think they are the stronger. Kenny loves playing tug of war, even though he weighs nearly as much as me, I make sure I win most of the time, so he knows who's the Alpha & if I think he is being to dominant, I tell him to "drop it", which he does.

TOW is only bad if you let the dog always win.

Most medium + dogs know they're stronger than their owners.

Playing tug correctly is about motivate and self control not who is stronger.

Edited February 25, 2010 by sas

[elsa]

Once again I work different to many here.

I don't teach tug of war.... nor do I encourage my clients to......

However,

I am working with family pets (i.e. people who have access to lots of kiddies).... not people doing dog sports.

A family pet should understand that they can play tug of war with another dog but not with a human. You teach a pet this game and he may start playing it with the kiddies..... then who wins.....

And before you all jump down my throat and say that your dogs are great family pets anyway.... it becomes something that as Responsible Dog Owners that you have to manage..... to ensure that kids don't become involved.

Same applies to other dog games, such as wrestling (play fighting) or Chase me games....

I agree with you. People who are training for trialling or sports need to provoke that drive, and if they are a half decent handler, they can then channel and control it. For straight family pets, tug is probably not a good idea for the reasons you state.

[huski]

IMO, if you have a family pet with even a semi decent prey drive it can be dangerous not to teach it self control and channel that drive in a positive way. My dogs are all first and foremost family pets who are regularly around children, I feel more confident and feel I have more control with them because I have taught them to have self control when t comes to their natural instincts.

[Aidan]

My 3 year old daughter plays tug with my working-line GSD. The dog always wins. So far no problems, and I don't anticipate any. It is a behaviour, not a war to determine who gets the keys to the universe.

They are always supervised when together anyway, so rules about where to grip the tug and when it is OK to grip the tug are consistent. Rules about how my dog is supposed to behave around my child (and vice-versa) at other times are also consistent. For e.g she knows not to snatch toys, she knows not to take any other toy or object that my daughter is holding. There are clear antecedents that a game of tug is being invited. Sometimes teaching a dog to live in close quarters with a child is difficult to teach, this is one way that I have provided a point of reference for both dog and child.

I wouldn't recommend this to anyone who was not confident that their dog was under control, safe around children (deliberate behaviours, can't account for accidental ones), and wasn't able to teach the dog where and when to grip. Some dogs just aren't good at that sort of thing, and just aren't good at figuring out when something is OK and when it isn't and therefore need more broad-ranging "black and white" boundaries. Some owners are very poor at teaching these sorts of boundaries and should be more "black and white" with the boundaries they set.

But I have absolutely no concerns whatsoever about status seeking or control-related behaviours from letting a dog win a tug toy. It is simple a practical matter, the game is infinitely more useful and practical when your dog will "out" on cue.

[TYLER23]

Tug of war is a fun game that can teach the dog plenty if played correctly.

I reccomend this video for those who aren't sure of which way to go and how to tug correctly: http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup#p/c/F0.../24/x9mPoWuvnLg

Great video, thanks for the link. I must admit we have been complacent with the 'leave it' command and our games of tug can go on for ages without the dog letting go and eventually ending in a stalemate.

[Kavik]

Most medium + dogs know they're stronger than their owners.

Playing tug correctly is about motivate and self control not who is stronger.

Agree with this

I also think it is about trust. I didn't teach it correctly with Kaos from the beginning, and while he would let go when I wanted, he was not as keen as I wanted him to be, and if I let him have it he wouldn't bring it back. I am working on getting him to bring it back and trust that it will not just be taken off him, but the game will continue if he brings it back for another game. So far we are having some success with this ;) Hopefully I get it right with the next dog from the beginning

[Erny]

Through the game of 'tug', taught with all the control signals (eg. the word that says "you can tug"; the word that says "give it up" and the word that says "game is finished") there are so many other side benefits as well. Through this game your dog learns to "give" (relinquish) other objects. It teaches when a game is over, so settle down. It does teach self-control to the dog and that is a huge benefit in other areas as well. It also teaches them that someone (eg. child) waving an object around doesn't mean it is for them to have. It is very beneficial, not to mention a stack of fun.

IMO, it is no different than children/adults learning the rules of a game (eg. basketball) and partaking in it. If someone doesn't comply with the rules, they might get sent off the court etc. etc. It teaches them self-control, even though the adrenaline rush is happening.

[~Anne~]

Maybe Pugs should be classified in a different category. I'll qualify my post right here - I know nothing about training dogs and my only knowledge comes from living with them all my life and some gained knowledge through reading etc.

I have never taught a dog to play tug. They just do it. I have never had an issue with any of my dogs by playing tug. I am not even sure what issues I should look out for?

Currently, I have a crazy little Pug girl who adores playing fetch and tug. She plays tug, I win, I throw the tug toy. She fetches, brings it back and we go through it again. She shakes her head like crazy from side to side and I worry she'll do damage while I firmly hold onto the toy and let her go for it, then I'll shake the toy imitating whats he does. I can almost lift her off the ground while she clamps down on the toy before she finally lets it go and I throw it again. If I don't want to play, I ignore her when she brings the toy up to. Sometimes I end up with a collection of 5 or 6 toys at my feet though when I do this.

I have no issues with her behaviour at all. Is what I am doing wrong or am I not understanding this whole thing of tug being 'bad'?

One of my boys will even make growl sounds while I play tug with him. Same thing though, no issues with behaviour. The girl will often make growly sounds when she plays with the toys by herself while she shales her head from side to side.

Edited February 25, 2010 by ~Anne~

[elsa]

Aidan, what is your definition of a letting a dog 'win' in a game of tug? IMO, every time I let my dog capture the toy I am giving them a win.

Ahh, sorry, should have defined it. I mean the dog gets to take the toy from your hand and leave with it.

This is the other thing I meant to mention earlier. Everyone I know who has trained their dog to work with a tug in prey drive, has a dog who sees them (the handler) as a big part of the game too. When they let go of the tug toy or throw it for the dog to get, the dog brings it back to them because without the handler the game doesn't exist.

So even though you could let go of the toy so the dog could leave with it, the dog isn't interested in having the toy on it's own.

I guess I also don't really see the difference between letting the dog capture the toy and tug with it and letting the dog run away with the toy. The capture and tug part is the part where the dog (by my understanding) gets drive satisfaction and their reward, which is why I see it as a win.

Elsa:

I would still be interested in any other ways to get the drive going as well.

This thread might be a good read for you;

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...c=43795&hl=

Thanks for that Huski. I spent most of yesterday reading it. It was fantastic

[Mumsie]

I think tug is a brilliant idea/game for the right dog & handler.

I think it is a dreadful idea/game for the wrong dog & handler.

I think we have the power to become the right handler and choose the right dog.

Our two JRT love to play and can get quite boisterous, when we want the game to end we say the word "Nice" as in time to calm down, stop being rough and enjoy a gently cuddle/pat - almost like a cool down after exercise. As soon as we say "Nice" they know it is time to behave, this works well when introducing them to people or even other dogs as it reminds them of the behaviour we expect in this situation. As JRT can be dominate dogs we don't let them win tug of war games too often.