Tug Of War Games

[elsa]

I have heard two schools of thought on this subject. I should start by saying I have 3 German Shepherds, one is 10 weeks old.

One school is that if you are doing obedience and want to increase your dogs drive, then play tug of war games with it, and let it win most of the time.

The other school is Cesar Milan who says, quote "If you have a bulldog or a powerful-breed dog, I strongly urge you not to get into this habit, no matter how cute you puppy looks as she tries to tear favourite sock from your grasp. Dogs love these games, but they can often bring out a predatory drive in them, and this can create obsessive behaviour that you may find hard to tone down in the future. Sure, you can easily win a tug-of-war with a small puppy, but by the time that dog is six months old, each time he prevails, he will grow to realise that he is able to control you. This nurtures dominant and obsessive behaviour in the puppy, which is exactly the opposite of the calm-submissive dog you want to create.

I will be doing obedience and show work with this new pup. I want him to have drive. What else can I do to promote this? I have trained dogs for a number of years, and want to take this pup to the top in both show and obedience.

Edited February 24, 2010 by elsa

[gila]

I don't think there's anything wrong with playing tug. But I think you should also teach a release command. For me, playing tug with my dog is about having fun, but also still being in control and being able to end the game on my terms.

[elsa]

I don't think there's anything wrong with playing tug. But I think you should also teach a release command. For me, playing tug with my dog is about having fun, but also still being in control and being able to end the game on my terms.

Yep, quite right there Gila. I should have incorporated that in my post, but I wasn't thinking that far ahead at the time lol. I think you are right about ending the game on your terms and still being in control. I usually use a toy that is 'mine'. It only comes out when I want to play. The dogs don't get it any other time.

Edited February 24, 2010 by elsa

[huski]

The other school is Cesar Milan who says, quote "If you have a bulldog or a powerful-breed dog, I strongly urge you not to get into this habit, no matter how cute you puppy looks as she tries to tear favourite sock from your grasp. Dogs love these games, but they can often bring out a predatory drive in them, and this can create obsessive behaviour that you may find hard to tone down in the future. Sure, you can easily win a tug-of-war with a small puppy, but by the time that dog is six months old, each time he prevails, he will grow to realise that he is able to control you. This nurtures dominant and obsessive behaviour in the puppy, which is exactly the opposite of the calm-submissive dog you want to create.

IMO this won't be a problem if you teach prey drive games/tug properly. My dog won't touch the tug toy until I say 'ok' even if I am holding it centimetres from her face. She releases it as soon as I say 'give'. There are many "powerful-breeds" of dogs that play tug and are worked in prey drive, who do not have the problems Cesar reckons they will run into.

I will be doing obedience and show work with this new pup. I want him to have drive. What else can I do to promote this? I have trained dogs for a number of years, and want to take this pup to the top in both show and obedience.

If you want to use a tug as a reward you need to learn how to work your dog in prey drive with the toy. The best bet is to learn from an experienced trainer, K9 Force for example has a distance course you can do with your dog on training in drive (food or prey) that quite a few DOLers have used with great success... you can also look at joining a reputable IPO club.

[elsa]

Umm, whats an IPO club? Can you recommend any in Brisbane?

[megan_]

It is great, but you should teach a start command (mine is "play") and a release command and actually teach the dog to release (so many people yell out 'release" but they've never actually taught the dog to do it).

[corvus]

Just curious to know what people think would happen if they don't start and end tug games themselves? Control is a slippery thing, and can exist on a continuum... It can also be in the eye of the beholder.

[W Sibs]

well, when i went to puppy school and they discouraged it.

when charlie was a puppy... we use to play tug a war. I start it and I end it. I stopped playing tug a war with him when he showed small signs of dominance though. Even though I am confident that I could stop the game with him anytime, I didn't want to encourage that behaviour. I'll put his energy in other games like 'Search' or other games that makes him use his nose and brain.

[cramet]

as long as you set the rule there is nothing wrong with playing tug u just teach the dog that the only time he is aloud to play tug is when u say so and same when u finish

i will always use the same item when i play tug wether it be a rolled up rag or a tug toy or a tug rope

if the dog decides to start its own game you just tell the dog "No" or what ever ur word is to tell the dog he has does somin u dont like

[arawnhaus]

Yep what cramet said.

Great game and very rewarding just be careful with young pup's due to growing teeth etc.....

[Aidan]

One of my dogs has never been taught to "out" and has always won games of tug. He is about as perfect a gentleman as someone who poops on your lawn can be regarded.

Teaching "out" might be a practical matter but I don't think any one thing in isolation is going to lead to a misbehaving animal with no respect for rules or boundaries. If you have other rules and boundaries that you can effectively maintain then this is just going to be one little thing - a dog who doesn't "out" when asked. I must say I was surprised that CM didn't recommend teaching the "out" for those puppies who grew up.

There was a study done in Canada, I believe it was University of Quebec but I don't have the reference. They discovered that dogs who played tug and were allowed to win were the most obedient in other trained tasks. I guess they had "learned to earn" and the reward was good.

[huski]

Just curious to know what people think would happen if they don't start and end tug games themselves? Control is a slippery thing, and can exist on a continuum... It can also be in the eye of the beholder.

it's part of teaching the dog self control. Surely you can see the benefit in having command words to start and stop the game?

Ending the game on your terms can also help increase drive and desire for the game, as opposed to letting the dog end the game when it's had enough.

[huski]

One of my dogs has never been taught to "out" and has always won games of tug. He is about as perfect a gentleman as someone who poops on your lawn can be regarded.

Teaching "out" might be a practical matter but I don't think any one thing in isolation is going to lead to a misbehaving animal with no respect for rules or boundaries. If you have other rules and boundaries that you can effectively maintain then this is just going to be one little thing - a dog who doesn't "out" when asked. I must say I was surprised that CM didn't recommend teaching the "out" for those puppies who grew up.

There was a study done in Canada, I believe it was University of Quebec but I don't have the reference. They discovered that dogs who played tug and were allowed to win were the most obedient in other trained tasks. I guess they had "learned to earn" and the reward was good.

Aidan, what is your definition of a letting a dog 'win' in a game of tug? IMO, every time I let my dog capture the toy I am giving them a win.

[elsa]

One of my dogs has never been taught to "out" and has always won games of tug. He is about as perfect a gentleman as someone who poops on your lawn can be regarded.

Teaching "out" might be a practical matter but I don't think any one thing in isolation is going to lead to a misbehaving animal with no respect for rules or boundaries. If you have other rules and boundaries that you can effectively maintain then this is just going to be one little thing - a dog who doesn't "out" when asked. I must say I was surprised that CM didn't recommend teaching the "out" for those puppies who grew up.

There was a study done in Canada, I believe it was University of Quebec but I don't have the reference. They discovered that dogs who played tug and were allowed to win were the most obedient in other trained tasks. I guess they had "learned to earn" and the reward was good.

Thats a good point Aidan. I think I will continue with the tug of war. My young bitch enjoys it immensely after training as a reward, and the pup loves it too. It seems to be a good way to have a real fun one on one with them, where their focus is only on you and they are having a good time. When I let my end go, the prey is dead anyway, and they are no longer too interested.

I would still be interested in any other ways to get the drive going as well.

[Vickie]

I think tug is a brilliant idea/game for the right dog & handler.

I think it is a dreadful idea/game for the wrong dog & handler.

I think we have the power to become the right handler and choose the right dog.

[Aidan]

Aidan, what is your definition of a letting a dog 'win' in a game of tug? IMO, every time I let my dog capture the toy I am giving them a win.

Ahh, sorry, should have defined it. I mean the dog gets to take the toy from your hand and leave with it.

[huski]

Aidan, what is your definition of a letting a dog 'win' in a game of tug? IMO, every time I let my dog capture the toy I am giving them a win.

Ahh, sorry, should have defined it. I mean the dog gets to take the toy from your hand and leave with it.

This is the other thing I meant to mention earlier. Everyone I know who has trained their dog to work with a tug in prey drive, has a dog who sees them (the handler) as a big part of the game too. When they let go of the tug toy or throw it for the dog to get, the dog brings it back to them because without the handler the game doesn't exist.

So even though you could let go of the toy so the dog could leave with it, the dog isn't interested in having the toy on it's own.

I guess I also don't really see the difference between letting the dog capture the toy and tug with it and letting the dog run away with the toy. The capture and tug part is the part where the dog (by my understanding) gets drive satisfaction and their reward, which is why I see it as a win.

Elsa:

I would still be interested in any other ways to get the drive going as well.

This thread might be a good read for you;

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...c=43795&hl=

Edited February 24, 2010 by huski

[Bully]

I've played tug with both Bull Terriers that I've owned. With Jessie (now at the "Bridge") I didn't play tug until she was about 18 months old. With Pele I played from a young puppy (always careful with puppy teeth). With both dogs we had/have rules and they learned to release on command before we started to play serious tug. If they don't release I remove the tuggy and game over. I let Pele win sometimes. If they never win where's the fun?

[W Sibs]

This is the other thing I meant to mention earlier. Everyone I know who has trained their dog to work with a tug in prey drive, has a dog who sees them (the handler) as a big part of the game too. When they let go of the tug toy or throw it for the dog to get, the dog brings it back to them because without the handler the game doesn't exist.

This is exactly how Charlie is when he is playing Tug a War with the BF. Charlie only plays tug a war with him... no one else. I did not know that, that's how people train their dog in tug in prey drive!

I don't play the game with Charlie. Charlie likes giving me toys.. he will bring a toy over and I hold out my hand and he drops it in my hand, then goes and get another one for me ;)

[Aidan]

I guess I also don't really see the difference between letting the dog capture the toy and tug with it and letting the dog run away with the toy. The capture and tug part is the part where the dog (by my understanding) gets drive satisfaction and their reward, which is why I see it as a win.

How do we know what dogs find reinforcing? If something increases or maintains the preceding response we know that it is a reinforcer.

In Schutzhund some trainers will let their dog "win" the sleeve to reinforce some aspect of the bite, deep grip, good targeting, hard fighting etc We know that "winning" the sleeve (sleeve is stripped and dog leaves with it) is a reinforcer because it will reinforce whatever aspect of the bite you are working on. (N.B the same is true of games of tug in foundation training).

It's likely that we have selectively bred dogs who enjoy winning, but I don't think it's unique amongst breeds intended for Schutzhund. If you look at what might be a natural function of the urge to tug, hunting and taking down prey would be the most likely origin (or preparation for that activity at least). This origin would suggest that the strongest drive satisfaction might come from winning, then killing and even disemboweling the toy (if possible).

We also know that most dogs find the act of tugging reinforcing on it's own, because it is common to use that activity (in conjunction with an "out" so the dog doesn't win the toy) to reinforce other behaviours.

Both of my dogs have different rituals that they display after winning a tug toy. If Sabella wins the bite sleeve she takes off and shakes it, then tears at the cover (I call her back before she destroys it). Django likes to lick or chew any toy that he has won, or if it's furry and limp he will shake and kill it first.

Dogs will also learn how to behave with toys. If a dog is always coming off the toy then being rewarded with the opportunity to get back on the toy it wouldn't surprise me if they became mad about tugging (and even outing). Shaking, tearing, chewing etc need never enter the picture, which would be preferable for service dogs and gundogs.