Voice Commands Or Hand Signals?

[RubyStar]

I'd agree about eventually going up in classes if someone could deliver me a fully functional SFE :p Damn friendly Labradors

Thats a good plan RubyStar. As you go up the classes (yes you will ;) ) you'll need both verbal and signals separately for UD and UDX so its good to train both.

One of mine responds better to verbal, the other responds better to hand signals/body language. They weren't trained in any obviously different way I don't think I like mine to know each type on their own and combined, so it's a work in progress

[tlc]

I'm pretty sure there has been at least one study on this where they trained puppies some with voice, some with hand signals and voice, and some with hand signals alone. If I remember correctly, the voice alone pups lagged significantly behind the rest of them. I use both, but only bring the verbal cue in later.

How strong is Tully's stay? Pretty strong as in rock solid, or pretty strong as in reliable except in exciting situations? IME, if you reward something enough it becomes a strongly conditioned response and can override instinct. Having said that, I know a dog that goes over threshold every time you throw a toy, and some dogs have such strong chase responses that they don't actually hear a command once they are in the zone. I reckon put her in a stay and start by throwing it just a half a metre or something in front of her and see if she can hold a stay for that. Surely there's a point where she can hold a stay, even if you just do a lollipop throw of 20cm. Less movement equals less arousal.

Tully stay is not what I would call rock solid if there is a lot of distraction or exciting situations, In a class situation she is good, but with the ball thing, the minute I throw it she is off. I had this brain wave to hold her collar, give the command and also use my stay hand signal, the thing is I can have my hand just touching the collar and she waits till the ball lands but as soon as there is no pressure off she goes, Anyway I will try your suggestion and go baby steps, start off really short and see if that makes a difference. Now to get my NON retrieving girl to retrieve It is hard when they have Nill interest all together, she is fab at obedience and doing class 4 and 5 stuff but we cant progress because on of the things she has to do is retrieve. It is hard to figure out how dogs trained in the same way can be so different at the end of the day. But it is all good fun teaching them new things. Thats why I thought this topic was interesting and it is great to see people so passionate about how their dogs and how they respond to them!!

[tlc]

I'd agree about eventually going up in classes if someone could deliver me a fully functional SFE :p Damn friendly Labradors

Thats a good plan RubyStar. As you go up the classes (yes you will ;) ) you'll need both verbal and signals separately for UD and UDX so its good to train both.

One of mine responds better to verbal, the other responds better to hand signals/body language. They weren't trained in any obviously different way I don't think I like mine to know each type on their own and combined, so it's a work in progress :D

Dont lose hope, I never thought one of my girls would do a solid SFE and 2 weeks ago at training with no pracitce, she was perfect, I was so suprised especially as I call her my licky girl, she just cant help herself and has to say hello by a little lick and fully body wag but on this occassion, I gave her the firm command to stay while the trainer did the SFE and she was great, go figure???? Not a fluke eother as she has done it again since. I was a proud doggy mumma, it sure doesnt take much to excite me when it comes to training, I love it when they do good!!

[ness]

Susan Garrett did it if the dog couldn't stay with the ball or tug toy thrown in front, she would start with dog at heel in a sit and drop the toy on the outside - i.e. the side away from the dog and release them around her body to get it. That way if they broke the handler could get the toy before the dog could.

Funny on teaching stays - my youngster has no problems holding a sit stay while I throw food at her, launch the ball as far as I can with a chuckit and when released she will accelerate to collect the toy, dance around and she stays put, but try a boring sit stay with no activity and argh its a mess.

Edited February 20, 2010 by ness

[tlc]

Susan Garrett did it if the dog couldn't stay with the ball or tug toy thrown in front, she would start with dog at heel in a sit and drop the toy on the outside - i.e. the side away from the dog and release them around her body to get it. That way if they broke the handler could get the toy before the dog could.

Funny on teaching stays - my youngster has no problems holding a sit stay while I throw food at her, launch the ball as far as I can with a chuckit and when released she will accelerate to collect the toy, dance around and she stays put, but try a boring sit stay with no activity and argh its a mess.

Sounds like you have clever doggies that love a challenge!!

I will try that for sure and something else just occured to me reading your post, I have probly been expecting to much as I have been trying this with a ball (Tully most best thing in the whole world) so I will start again but using a toy (tug or something similar) and go from there as I know she wont be as keen as she is with the ball. Thanks its given me food for thought!

Edited February 20, 2010 by tlc

[ness]

When I started I did start with a ball at the park and Kenzie is as ball mad as they come. I did a bit of collar holding and then less pressure combined with throwing the ball short distances before expecting her to hold it while I threw it greater distances. We also did other work other than holding a stay with the ball on the ground so she knew just because the ball was there didn't mean she could help herself. So I would heel her around the stationary ball on the ground and release her to get it when she was working nicely.

Edited February 20, 2010 by ness

[tlc]

Thats great, I will go back to the ball maybe after I have tried with something else and you have given me some great ideas to try with Tully. Thanks!

I wonder what makes a dog so ball oriented? My boys will chase the ball but couldn't be bothered bring it back, they just do it so Tully will chase them. and she does too but she never fights them for it, she just follows thier every move because she has learnt that they will drop it eventually and then its hers and she always brings it back so I can throw it again. She even gets out of the car and comes right to me as if to say "have we got a ball today mum, have we have we" I don't let her have the ball all the time as she does get really obsessed and nothing else matters. Her mum was ball obsessed too, maybe it is genetic??

[RubyStar]

I'd agree about eventually going up in classes if someone could deliver me a fully functional SFE Damn friendly Labradors

Thats a good plan RubyStar. As you go up the classes (yes you will ) you'll need both verbal and signals separately for UD and UDX so its good to train both.

One of mine responds better to verbal, the other responds better to hand signals/body language. They weren't trained in any obviously different way I don't think I like mine to know each type on their own and combined, so it's a work in progress

Dont lose hope, I never thought one of my girls would do a solid SFE and 2 weeks ago at training with no pracitce, she was perfect, I was so suprised especially as I call her my licky girl, she just cant help herself and has to say hello by a little lick and fully body wag but on this occassion, I gave her the firm command to stay while the trainer did the SFE and she was great, go figure???? Not a fluke eother as she has done it again since. I was a proud doggy mumma, it sure doesnt take much to excite me when it comes to training, I love it when they do good!!

Thanks I know we'll get it, she CAN do them, just not reliably every time! We have managed 3 passes which means she did her SFE alright, but now it seems hit and miss again. Hmm one day!

[huski]

I wonder what makes a dog so ball oriented? My boys will chase the ball but couldn't be bothered bring it back, they just do it so Tully will chase them. and she does too but she never fights them for it, she just follows thier every move because she has learnt that they will drop it eventually and then its hers and she always brings it back so I can throw it again. She even gets out of the car and comes right to me as if to say "have we got a ball today mum, have we have we" I don't let her have the ball all the time as she does get really obsessed and nothing else matters. Her mum was ball obsessed too, maybe it is genetic??

It's all prey drive and the dog learning to get drive satisfaction from the ball. All instinct

[tlc]

Yea I get that, I guess what amazes me is one can have such high prey drive and my other girl is the total opposite, she sees me throw the ball and to her its like, what you expect me to run no way she is not interested at all. They are so different, the boys are mildly interested but thats about it.

[huski]

Yea I get that, I guess what amazes me is one can have such high prey drive and my other girl is the total opposite, she sees me throw the ball and to her its like, what you expect me to run no way she is not interested at all. They are so different, the boys are mildly interested but thats about it.

It's interesting what can motivate different dogs I think prey driven dogs are born that way but it's also up to us to harness it and develop it. I've met loads of poodles who have decent prey drive and love to chase/tug - maybe her prey drive comes from the poodle in her??

Edited February 20, 2010 by huski

[melzawelza]

The key also to improving on your voice commands is ensuring that you give the voice command before you even begin to show any signs of the physical cue. If you do them at the same time or start your hand command as you're saying the vocal, the dog will ignore what it doesnt know (the voice command) and only focus on what it does know (The body signal). You can be saying 'sit' at the same time as your hand signal for six months and your dog might still not know the voice command because it just ignores it in light of the hand signal.

I've found that pretty much all dogs respond better to physical cues. How they are with vocals depends on how they've been trained in them.

[tlc]

That certainly makes a lot of sense!! I did another test tonight with my girl at tea time, she sat and waited for the cue and i told her to eat up, she didnt move so I said nothing and did the hand signal for eat up and still nothing, but when I did the two together she went for it. And I think she knows Im testing her or maybe she is testing me!

I am going to make a concsious effort from now on to give clear voice commands just before I give the hand signal for behaviours, so they become accustomed to both.

[Erny]

That certainly makes a lot of sense!! I did another test tonight with my girl at tea time, she sat and waited for the cue and i told her to eat up, she didnt move so I said nothing and did the hand signal for eat up and still nothing, but when I did the two together she went for it. And I think she knows Im testing her or maybe she is testing me!

You will find that your dog is not testing you, it's just that you've altered the command. She is thinking this way :

When my owner says sit AND moves her hand like so, then I sit.

You've taught your dog that way. Your dog has paired voice WITH hand signal. You need to separate them and teach each of them separately.

Same thing often happens with drop. People often bend over (comes from when they first taught their dogs the position). Then people have a habit of bending over. And all the whle, dog is thinking "ahhh ... when owner says "drop" AND bends over like so, then I drop". Then people don't quite understand why dog doesn't comply with the "drop" command at other times and forget that it might be because they aren't bending over.

Remember, dogs think in 'images', not words.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Erny

[corvus]

Well... I know an intensely prey driven dog that couldn't give a stuff about balls. He only chases things that are alive. And then, only if he thinks he has a good chance of catching them.