Targets And Drive

[JulesP]

Think Corvus still doesn't get drive and is using the word in a different way to the way most of the rest of us are. Think this is possibly deliberate as she doesn't seem to be a stupid person. Makes for very frustrating conversations.

To use an item to create drive, the dog needs to really value it. If your dog really values its target stick then you could use it to create drive. I can't see that many dogs would find touching its nose to a target stick super, super rewarding though.

If you watch Susan G play her crate games, she gets the dog into drive first. The crate isn't the reward object. The dog associates the crate with getting a reward. Running to the crate isn't putting the dog in drive. She gets it in drive first.

My dogs have super high value for nose touches. They will run on every single contact they see to offer nose touches. Don't think there is any drive involved in this behaviour. I have just built the value very high for contacts.

[Kavik]

Touching a target is not intrinsically rewarding for a dog, its value is built in by using primary reinforcers. So I don't think you could use a target as a reward in itself (if that is what you are asking?). You could get the dog to do something, then touch the target, but you would still have to reward touching the target with something else (food or toy for eg). You might even be able to get the dog to chase a target stick like a toy then give a command but somewhere you would have to reward with a primary reinforcer and not just the target.

[corvus]

The only way I can see that the target itself would be the reward is if you use a toy or a food pouch. You still have to give the reward though.

Clearly I've confused everyone with an ill use of the word "reward". I probably should have said using a target as a secondary reinforcer. We know that secondary reinforcers are only as good as the last time you reinforced them with a primary reinforcer. No doubt people use secondary reinforcers in drive training all the time, but I was wondering if anyone had taken the time to build drive for targets, or even incorporated targets into building drive in general and then using targeting as a game to put a dog in drive.

My mistake.

The reason why I asked about targets and not just any random behaviour, bridge, or marker is the wide application of targets and the fact that it lends itself well to drive games. I hardly think you can achieve all your aims in drive training with just targets alone. Who uses just one kind of reward anyway? IME any animal loves an easy win, and targeting is both an easy win and an activity that can be quite energetic and tap into the same chase stuff that other drive-building games do. For example, you could throw a target.

If you feel the need to point out that your flame suit is on Corvus, perhaps you might explain why you think that you need it.

Just thought it would be good to be prepared, PF. This stuff ain't outrageous, dangerous, or obviously wrong, but then again, I have a knack for turning the most innocuous things into stupidly argumentative topics in the training section.

I don't understand why people feel they need to understand where I'm going with the question. Just answer it.

ETA It would be very amusing and tricksy of me to deliberately use the word drive in a way that no one else was using it, but as much as I love amusing and tricksy activities, I am actually using the word drive in the sense of high anticipation, intent stare, ears forward, tension in body kind of thing. Whether you can get drive for targeting or not is not a question I think needs answering, because I know for a fact you can. Like I said, works well for McDevitt. But just to repeat myself again, yes, you absolutely need to add a primary reinforcer as well. Unless you have a frisbee mad dog and start using a frisbee as a target, perhaps. :p

Edited February 20, 2010 by corvus

[Kavik]

Do you mean get the dog to do something then throw the target, dog touches target and you reward? Or dog chases target, you get dog to do something, you throw target, dog touches target, you reward? Just trying to figure out how you think it would work.

Or put a target on the ground, and say do some heeling, then send the dog to the target? In this case it wouldn't be much different to using a treat pouch etc as you would still need to get there and reward the dog.

[Vickie]

I don't understand why people feel they need to understand where I'm going with the question. Just answer it.

OK, yes, I have taken time to build drive for targets .

[JulesP]

Yes I also build drive for targets but I don't use targets to build drive

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

Unless you have a frisbee mad dog and start using a frisbee as a target, perhaps.

That wouldn't work for long if you never threw it.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Generally in dog sports targetting is used to place a dog in a certain position. Maybe you should go watch some agility trials and you would understand why your question is confusing. So yep, all of us build drive for targets (unless of course we train running contacts) and obedience triallers do it too.

As you know most of us are training for a particular purpose so whilst targetting might be a secondary reinforcer in my dogs mind, I don't really care, to get what I want I still need to back it up with a higher value reward. Otherwise the dog will be saying "yeah that's nice to target, now where tf is my pay?".

It's nice to doodle- it's easy brainwork you don't need to stick firm to any criteria really- because there's no real end goal for your dogs.

[Kavik]

Yes I also build drive for targets but I don't use targets to build drive

Same

Here is a very impressive nose touch

[corvus]

Do you mean get the dog to do something then throw the target, dog touches target and you reward? Or dog chases target, you get dog to do something, you throw target, dog touches target, you reward? Just trying to figure out how you think it would work.

Or put a target on the ground, and say do some heeling, then send the dog to the target? In this case it wouldn't be much different to using a treat pouch etc as you would still need to get there and reward the dog.

That's a great question! And just what I was hoping someone who might have done it would answer.

But no one has, so we're stuck with my half-baked ideas. My visualisation is you use a bit of tossing around of targets or something similar (reward after every touch) as a setting effect. As in, a way to get them revved and excited. Then get them to do something and reward with another bout of quick touches and rewards, rapid fire style, or with some chasing of the target, then the cycle repeats. Pretty much exactly the same as what you would do with food if you weren't using a target.

I just bought a Manners Minder with almost exactly that second scenario in mind. And training a hare who doesn't like to approach me sometimes.

Have people that have built drive for targeting ever used it for anything other than getting a dog to move to where you want them to be?

Thanks for your comment, Aidan, although it seems to have been overlooked along with McDevitt's applications of targeting in drive.

[ness]

I have seen hand targeting used in the obedience ring as a "reward" between exercises. I have also seen other tricks (spins/twists/leg weaves) which have been paired with food to the point where they become self rewarding for use in the obedience ring.

[m-j]

using a target as a secondary reinforcer

A friend of mine does this with a hand target (she does obedience trials) and it seems to work for her. All her dogs have done and do work brilliantly and she does very well. I'm imagine she must reinforce the target from time to time (I have never seen her do it tho), but a huge reinforcement history is a very powerful tool, plus her delivery and the act of the dog targeting seems to be very reinforcing to her dogs. To me, just from watching her, it acts like a KGS sort of, I haven't really discussed this with her so can't really give you any info on the hows and whys.

cheers

M-J

Edited February 20, 2010 by m-j

[corvus]

Thanks, ness. That's exactly what I was thinking.

Erik has tricks he does for the hell of it without rewards. I'd still reward periodically, but they are easy behaviours to maintain because he likes doing them. Just this morning at the river he blew off my partner to come and do reverse circles around my leg. I didn't even call him! He had just done a few and decided he'd rather do more than try to devine what my partner wanted him to do.

ETA and m-j.

Edited February 20, 2010 by corvus

[Staff'n'Toller]

I just bought a Manners Minder with almost exactly that second scenario in mind. And training a hare who doesn't like to approach me sometimes.

Would be interesting to see some videos of your dogs working with the manners minder. I borrowed one hoping to use it for a few applications but none of them worked out in real life the way I pictured it in my head.

Have people that have built drive for targeting ever used it for anything other than getting a dog to move to where you want them to be?

Yes, I use it as a re-focus exercise when in training class with other dogs. I have used it in the past with things my dogs may have been a bit wary about (say a flapping flag) getting them to go and target that item.

[ness]

I was able to use targeting to get Kenz to approach people she has been afraid of. She actually started volunteering the behavior towards certain people in the hope of getting a reward out of it.

[corvus]

I video everything I do these days, except with the hare because I work with him in the dark. It will certainly be interesting to see if my plans for the MM come to fruition. I'll be sure to post some videos if I manage to achieve anything remotely interesting. Videos of abject failure are interesting as well, though. I've been meaning to put up a video of my abject failure to get Kivi to notice a mat just because it's a great example of troubleshooting with clicker training. Troubleshooting is at least as useful as success. It'd be nice to have successful mat noticing at the end, though.

[bedazzledx2]

I use hand targetting as a setting up behaviour in the obedience ring. Its a rewarding exercise that gets him ready and engaged. I pair it with food in training but not often as its become self rewarding. I hold my hand high so he has to jump a little to touch and in training I am only rewarding a full on hard nose touch to the middle of my hand. I want him slamming my hand

I have seen hand targeting used in the obedience ring as a "reward" between exercises. I have also seen other tricks (spins/twists/leg weaves) which have been paired with food to the point where they become self rewarding for use in the obedience ring.

[Kavik]

I use hand targetting as a setting up behaviour at the start of agility (well, that's the plan Seems to be working pretty well in training but not so well at trials . . . )