Targets And Drive

[corvus]

Has anyone ever incorporated targeting into drive training? If so, how did you do it?

[Cosmolo]

Yes- get dog to target object/ hand, reward in drive.

[JulesP]

Get dog in drive, target or lure or whatever.

[Seita]

the same way you would teach it normally, the only difference is that you trigger the dog into drive first and reward in drive after.

[corvus]

Not teaching it and rewarding with drive, but increasing drive for the target and using that as a reward...

[Erny]

Not teaching it and rewarding with drive, but increasing drive for the target and using that as a reward...

What do you think ends up being the dog's drive satisfaction, doing it that way? What drive satisfaction would the dog achieve by being permitted to touch/target your hand or whatever?

Edited February 19, 2010 by Erny

[corvus]

Food drive. Targets - like clickers - are always paired with food. But it's fast and easy behaviour, so you can build a lot of anticipation for the reward into it. It would just be like getting dog to chase the food in your hand only not using food in your hand, but a target instead. That way you get drive and a beautifully strong behaviour with endless applications in one go. I was thinking of it as a way to channel all that lovely excitement and arousal you get for clicker training.

Ooo, and also, once you taught it, you could be clever with your food rewards, dropping in jackpots and uber high value food rewards from time to time to build the same sort of motivation we get for our recalls.

[Erny]

That's not how you explained it though.

Not teaching it and rewarding with drive, but increasing drive for the target and using that as a reward...

You said you were or wanted to use the target as the reward. But you're still using food. A 'click' is only an indicator that the reward is coming.

So, you're dog wants the food so it targets and your dog gets the food ? I'm not seeing how the target is the reward for drive.

Actually, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

You've lost me corvus

[shoemonster]

Corvus do you mean having the drive reward off your body so the dog can be released to it, rather than you giving it to them from your hand?

[corvus]

I said use the target as a reward because when you build anticipation for the reward that follows targeting the reward itself is kind of a second thought. The anticipation is a bigger reward than the wee little taste of meat that comes after. If there were no anticipation you wouldn't get that drive to get to the target that you'd be trying to create and subsequently use. You could use drive games as the reward for targeting if you wanted to. It doesn't really matter.

It's basically the difference between luring and targeting. If you can get a dog in drive by playing "catch-the-hand" sorts of games with food, why not with target games and get the added bonus of being able to incorporate it into distance work and also having a behaviour that is useful in a lot of different situations? I'm thinking along the lines of Crate Games and that sort of thing.

[ness]

Are you trying to get at a behavior becoming intrinsically self rewarding for a dog corvus as distinct from always needing an external reward.

[Staff'n'Toller]

In crate games, the drive to go into the crate is from the anticipation of being released from the crate for food or tug.

I have one dog who is driven to target, and actually Luke W's Barkly is also very driven to nose target but if you stop rewarding you'll extinguish the behaviour due to lack of a primary reinforcer.

As per usual, I have no idea where you're going, it seems like you are trying to introduce what is already known here or reinvent the wheel.

[Red Fox]

Corvus, Maybe you should try the K9 Force TID program. It would answer all you questions about drive and how to channel it

[Kavik]

My targets are stationary when I train with them (for sending or 2o2o for contacts or my hand for nose touches) - are you talking about moving the target (like luring with the target on a stick or something)?

[corvus]

In crate games, the drive to go into the crate is from the anticipation of being released from the crate for food or tug.

Yes, that is what I'm getting at. But we know that you can then incorporate crates into other activities because they already have drive to go into the crate. It's the same principle with Leslie McDevitt's mat training. She builds drive for the mat and then uses the mat for all sorts of things, including a target during agility training. This ain't new. I'm not pretending incorporating targets into drive work is a brand new idea by any means, just asking if anyone has done it. I was also wondering how far they went with it, but one step at a time.

I have one dog who is driven to target, and actually Luke W's Barkly is also very driven to nose target but if you stop rewarding you'll extinguish the behaviour due to lack of a primary reinforcer.

Yeah, same with clicker training, same with anything.

[Vickie]

To target something is a behaviour. It is no different to a sit or a spin or a retrieve. All vary in complexity but they are all behaviours. All can be done while your dog is in drive & has anticipation (for the reward).

Targetting, like most other behaviours will extinguish if not rewarded. The reward does not necessarily have to be food or a toy. I do believe there are behaviours that a dog can find self rewarding but cannot see how targetting anything could be one of them.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Vickie

[poodlefan]

The only way I can see that the target itself would be the reward is if you use a toy or a food pouch. You still have to give the reward though.

If you feel the need to point out that your flame suit is on Corvus, perhaps you might explain why you think that you need it.

Edited February 19, 2010 by poodlefan

[Seita]

I don't understand where you're going with this question?

For UD I have had to teach my dog to run out away from me to a large box made out of pipe and get her to sit in it. I taught this by getting her to target to the box, first short distances followed by a release to her drive reward and then increased the distance etc etc. She bolts out there and sits in the box and stares me down waiting for her release to her drive reward (tug)... she does not find the exercise of going to the target/box as rewarding, she sees it as another way to EARN her drive reward.

[Aidan]

An object that is targeted can be a discriminating stimulus that elicits drive-related behaviours (both operants and respondents).