Does Mucous On Pants = Water Has Broken?

[*Lolapalooza*]

I cant stop thinking about my lost puppies on Monday (see Feb Litters Thread) I have de briefed with many people as I just cant work out what went wrong.

I saw mucous strings on Ginger's pants at 4pm Sunday, I spoke with a friend last night, she said that usually the mucous occurs after the water breaks....Is this true????????

Everything I have seen/read says that mucous can come in the last 24 hours but not that it means water has broken...........

[Aziah]

I cant stop thinking about my lost puppies on Monday (see Feb Litters Thread) I have de briefed with many people as I just cant work out what went wrong.

I saw mucous strings on Ginger's pants at 4pm Sunday, I spoke with a friend last night, she said that usually the mucous occurs after the water breaks....Is this true????????

Everything I have seen/read says that mucous can come in the last 24 hours but not that it means water has broken...........

What you've read is correct, I know you're searching for a reason why but you may not find it

[ellz]

No, many bitches have some form of mucous discharge at various stages of gestation. It doesn't necessarily mean that labour has begun.

[*Lolapalooza*]

Thanks Iziah I keep telling myself that but feel like such a bloody idiot/failure/

Last question...............

Ginger also had a tummy crap (small contraction) at 9.15 Sunday night and 11pm Sunday night and then nothing, she was restless that night I was assuming labour was coming but not that it had perhaps started................(only thing I can think of that caused the dead babies is maybe she started labour Sunday night but didnt progress to proper contractions until 2pm Monday....by then too late for all but Fat Boy Stubbs)

She didnt go into proper labour until 2pm Monday, would experienced breeders have called the vet Sunday at 11pm after a small (any) contraction like that assuming labour was starting???

She never nested, went off her food, broke water that I could see thats why I didn't

[ellz]

Thanks Iziah I keep telling myself that but feel like such a bloody idiot/failure/

Last question...............

Ginger also had a tummy crap (small contraction) at 9.15 Sunday night and 11pm Sunday night and then nothing, she was restless that night I was assuming labour was coming but not that it had perhaps started................(only thing I can think of that caused the dead babies is maybe she started labour Sunday night but didnt progress to proper contractions until 2pm Monday....by then too late for all but Fat Boy Stubbs)

She didnt go into proper labour until 2pm Monday, would experienced breeders have called the vet Sunday at 11pm after a small (any) contraction like that assuming labour was starting???

She never nested, went off her food, broke water that I could see thats why I didn't

I don't want to upset you with my answer and no doubt there will be other opinions but....

If it were me, if she were visibly contracting and obviously uncomfortable, I would probably have erred on the side of caution and I would have called the vet on the Sunday night.

This is almost what happened with Koda. She got VERY restless and was obviously not happy at about midnight on the Saturday night after her temp had dropped at midday Saturday. I watched her all night and when nothing was happening by about 5.30am Sunday morning, I rang the vet. I was at his surgery by 8am and the first puppy was out by about 9am.

At the time, it wasn't a true "emergency" and we could have proceeded a few ways....oxy shots and monitoring, do nothing but watch or go in and take the puppies. As it turned out, it was lucky we went in because the placentas had started to separate and two of the puppies were showing meconium so they were definitely ready and starting to stress.

The vet commented at the time that had we not acted when we did, or had I waited until the Monday there probably wouldn't have been any puppies alive. As it was, there were 9 and all survived.

BUT...we can all be wise in hindsight.

[*Lolapalooza*]

Thanks Iziah I keep telling myself that but feel like such a bloody idiot/failure/

Last question...............

Ginger also had a tummy crap (small contraction) at 9.15 Sunday night and 11pm Sunday night and then nothing, she was restless that night I was assuming labour was coming but not that it had perhaps started................(only thing I can think of that caused the dead babies is maybe she started labour Sunday night but didnt progress to proper contractions until 2pm Monday....by then too late for all but Fat Boy Stubbs)

She didnt go into proper labour until 2pm Monday, would experienced breeders have called the vet Sunday at 11pm after a small (any) contraction like that assuming labour was starting???

She never nested, went off her food, broke water that I could see thats why I didn't

I don't want to upset you with my answer and no doubt there will be other opinions but....

If it were me, if she were visibly contracting and obviously uncomfortable, I would probably have erred on the side of caution and I would have called the vet on the Sunday night.

This is almost what happened with Koda. She got VERY restless and was obviously not happy at about midnight on the Saturday night after her temp had dropped at midday Saturday. I watched her all night and when nothing was happening by about 5.30am Sunday morning, I rang the vet. I was at his surgery by 8am and the first puppy was out by about 9am.

At the time, it wasn't a true "emergency" and we could have proceeded a few ways....oxy shots and monitoring, do nothing but watch or go in and take the puppies. As it turned out, it was lucky we went in because the placentas had started to separate and two of the puppies were showing meconium so they were definitely ready and starting to stress.

The vet commented at the time that had we not acted when we did, or had I waited until the Monday there probably wouldn't have been any puppies alive. As it was, there were 9 and all survived.

BUT...we can all be wise in hindsight.

Thanks Ellz

Im not upset it is done and dusted, the only thing we can do is hope people learn from this and what happened to Koda, is still f***ed though and my friends often give me crap because I am 'anal' and over prepared I was trying to just be patient.

Gingers ?contractions looked like small period cramps or poo pains that we might get so I thought the pups were just moving into position. Even at 10 am Monday the babies were doing karate so I stupidly waited for labour to start.

Every bitch is different and its best to be anal than so so sorry

Its so so true that in hindsight I know I would have my babies...... :D

(my mum jsut told me that her hairdresser told her this week that her schnauzer x and white fluffy had babies this week...she didnt even know the bitch was preg until she woke up in the morning to 3 puppies in the garden.....FFS, I bet if I bred Ginge to a golden retriever and went to a party sunday night my litter would have been super healthy and whelped in 2 hours )

[ellz]

I hear you.

BYBs have natural breedings with any old dog, huge litters with no whelping issues and sell their puppies for inflated prices with no repercussions from puppy purchasers with unreal expectations.

Oh to be so lucky! Sometimes I wonder why it is that I'm so dead-set keen on doing the right thing by the CC, my dogs and myself. And then I kick myself and remind myself that I couldn't sleep at night if I didn't put 250% of myself into it all!

[redkidsmum]

Thanks Iziah I keep telling myself that but feel like such a bloody idiot/failure/

Last question...............

Ginger also had a tummy crap (small contraction) at 9.15 Sunday night and 11pm Sunday night and then nothing, she was restless that night I was assuming labour was coming but not that it had perhaps started................(only thing I can think of that caused the dead babies is maybe she started labour Sunday night but didnt progress to proper contractions until 2pm Monday....by then too late for all but Fat Boy Stubbs)

She didnt go into proper labour until 2pm Monday, would experienced breeders have called the vet Sunday at 11pm after a small (any) contraction like that assuming labour was starting???

She never nested, went off her food, broke water that I could see thats why I didn't

I also wouldn't have been concerned about a mild contraction or two..my girls seem to have them a few days before delivery and like you I assume it is puppies getting in place.the last few days they also pace the floor trying to get comfortable... My girl who just delivered a few hours ago actually had her waters break two hours before the serious pushing started..have not had that happen before..but all well.first pup born dry !!

My feeling is that for whatever reason the last puppy born (rigor mortis had started) had died & caused the start of other placenta's seperating . I don't think anyone could have forseen that

[redkidsmum]

My second litter has just arrived safely..In my lap of course 3 boys and 1 girl..First time my Jessica has had four puppies ..think she was trying to catch up with Gypsy. Feeling very lucky to have nine beautiful healthy babies born & both mums both well. Not much sleep last night..my girls all seem to be very restless for a few days..maybe the milk coming in properly. First litter all gaining weight nicely.

[*Lolapalooza*]

My second litter has just arrived safely..In my lap of course 3 boys and 1 girl..First time my Jessica has had four puppies ..think she was trying to catch up with Gypsy. Feeling very lucky to have nine beautiful healthy babies born & both mums both well. Not much sleep last night..my girls all seem to be very restless for a few days..maybe the milk coming in properly. First litter all gaining weight nicely.

Congratulations RKM. Thats a nice mix of males and females in your litters, good girls

[angelsun]

I've had quite a few girls that whelp two hours after eating their supper, not nesting at all, nor giving me any visible signs of contractions or labour...the moral is simply that the text books tell us certain things, but the bitches don't always read those books.

Breeding is a crap shoot as far as I"m concerned....all can go wonderfully and easy or all hell can break loose or something in the middle and the longer we do this, the more chance we have of experiencing it all.

[Bilbo Baggins]

*Lolapalooza* try not to beat yourself up. Read November/December threads/ I lost 4 pups with 2 dead inside and a caesar. LMWS lost 12 pups and the mum.

Ruby fluffed around and contracted Thur night. Nothing Friday. I did not go away for the weekend.

Then she looked dead keen to have Saturday night, went to sleep 12 mn.

Nothing Sunday. During Sunday night she contracted took her to emergency vet 5am Monday morning. Sent home.

Saw another vet Monday arvo, prog test not for another 2 days.

Started Tuesday evening after I got home from work about 9.00pm. Action this time.

Mine often eat heartily before whelping. Often have a mucous discharge for a few days.

[*Lolapalooza*]

*Lolapalooza* try not to beat yourself up. Read November/December threads/ I lost 4 pups with 2 dead inside and a caesar. LMWS lost 12 pups and the mum.

Ruby fluffed around and contracted Thur night. Nothing Friday. I did not go away for the weekend.

Then she looked dead keen to have Saturday night, went to sleep 12 mn.

Nothing Sunday. During Sunday night she contracted took her to emergency vet 5am Monday morning. Sent home.

Saw another vet Monday arvo, prog test not for another 2 days.

Started Tuesday evening after I got home from work about 9.00pm. Action this time.

Mine often eat heartily before whelping. Often have a mucous discharge for a few days.

Oh my god what a cow Ruby is!!!

I did read December and all through this I am so thankful that my bitch is ok, LMWS's loss was heartbreaking something you could never get over. I am sorry for you also BB. I forget that it is not just me that bad things happen to, I have just been killing my self this week with grief and disappointment. Even very experienced people don't breeze through whelping and puppy rearing....crap shoot is a great description.

Thankyou everone for your input/help I really appreciate it and this forum is such an excellent tool I often do searches on past topics for opinions, education.

Next time I will probably plan an elective caesar, If my repro vet thinks it is advisable (not my oncall vet!) I would love a daughter of my girl but first and foremost i want to do whats best for her.(and my mental health! )

Thanks again

[Ozstar]

Don't beat yourself up.

Breeding is extremely hard and can take so much out of you.

The fact that her water hadn't broken and she was not actively pushing constantly would have made me think to just watch her and see how she goes.

My last 2 litters where not the best.

Storm had an elective c-section, only 3 out of 6 pups alive.

Scarlet started well but after pushing with no progress was rushed to the vets, 5 pups and all alive after a lot of work on them (thought I was only bringing 2 home). Scarlet ended up having to have 2 more ops within the next 7 days and I almost lost her The first few weeks after having the pups was very touch and go with Scarlet not that you would notices it now

Spoil Stubbs and Ginger and try again in a years time, hopefully things will go better

If you every want a hand with whelping or just someone to back up your feelings give me a call, I am more than happy to help.

Leanne

[dancinbcs]

I'm not at all impressed with a vet refusing to do a c-section when requested. If in any doubt at all with mine or if they are at the due date with no action, I am off to the vet for an ultrasound to make sure all is well. I have had some untrasounded several times in the couple of days before whelping and at the first sign that something is amiss, my vet prefers to do a c-section. I hate vets that have the "wait and see" attitude. Sometimes it works out but so often it ends up with the death of puppies or even the bitch. More than one puppy born dead should be enough reason to go in and get the others out asap.

[*Lolapalooza*]

I'm not at all impressed with a vet refusing to do a c-section when requested. If in any doubt at all with mine or if they are at the due date with no action, I am off to the vet for an ultrasound to make sure all is well. I have had some untrasounded several times in the couple of days before whelping and at the first sign that something is amiss, my vet prefers to do a c-section. I hate vets that have the "wait and see" attitude. Sometimes it works out but so often it ends up with the death of puppies or even the bitch. More than one puppy born dead should be enough reason to go in and get the others out asap.

This nob of a vet was the oncall guy, he is usually a cow vet and doesnt consult the small animals. Even the vet I saw monday and who I called yesterday re follow up did not give me confidence. My usual vet has just retired due to cancer (v sad is only 49yrs old) They are the only vet around here who do after hours the rest send you to Anzac Hwy which is about a 50k drive. So I was stuck.

Thanks Leanne I really appreciate your offer, i was almost going to call you the other day to ask these questions. Please give Scarlett a kiss for me.

[dancinbcs]

I'm not at all impressed with a vet refusing to do a c-section when requested. If in any doubt at all with mine or if they are at the due date with no action, I am off to the vet for an ultrasound to make sure all is well. I have had some untrasounded several times in the couple of days before whelping and at the first sign that something is amiss, my vet prefers to do a c-section. I hate vets that have the "wait and see" attitude. Sometimes it works out but so often it ends up with the death of puppies or even the bitch. More than one puppy born dead should be enough reason to go in and get the others out asap.

This nob of a vet was the oncall guy, he is usually a cow vet and doesnt consult the small animals. Even the vet I saw monday and who I called yesterday re follow up did not give me confidence. My usual vet has just retired due to cancer (v sad is only 49yrs old) They are the only vet around here who do after hours the rest send you to Anzac Hwy which is about a 50k drive. So I was stuck.

Thanks Leanne I really appreciate your offer, i was almost going to call you the other day to ask these questions. Please give Scarlett a kiss for me.

I wouldn't breed without access to a good breeder's vet 24/7, even if it does mean a 50km drive. I am so lucky that my vet is only 15 minutes away but I know plenty of breeders who travel up to an hour or more to go to these vets, because they are reliable and knowledgable with whelpings. The average vet will do just about anything to avoid doing a caesar and figures that so long as the bitch survives all is fine. The loss of puppies just seems to be something they expect to happen. My vets see so many breeders that they often do several caesars in a week and sometimes several in the one day. For them it is routine and they prefer to do a one for live puppies, than to wait too long, still have to do it and find the puppies are dead.

Before you breed again make sure you find a really good vet, even if they are an hour away. I have no idea how breeders in more remote areas cope with the stress of whelping without a good vet on hand if needed. They are braver than I am.

[Ozstar]

My vet is about 45 mins away, can get there quicker when need to

He is fantastic and trusts breeders instincts, he is also one of the cheapest for c-section that I have seen in a long time. He is also aquis accredited which makes it easier when sending pups overseas.

Leanne

[Bilbo Baggins]

The reason I took Ruby to the new vet was because my vet is getting old and I did not want to put him through the stress of another caesar.

Two of my fellow group 1 exhibitors work there and 1 uses them so had confidence.

Also this clinic has been recommend by AI users.

The vets suggestion of prog test then act on the result was spot on and I was happy to wait.

It takes about 30 mins to get there. City traffic.

ETA. Got side tracked and missed the punch line.

Loopa you will never know and maybe the rigamortis one caused the pups in that horn to have an infection.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Bilbo Baggins