New Championship Title For Neutered Dogs

[-Megz-]

I suppose it comes down to to the fact that it doesn't really matter that much how existing competitors view what dogs enter neuter classes.

It matter a great deal how new exhibitors will view them. The proof of our differing arguments as to how the ring should be conducted will be their popularity.

For me what matters is their popularity with new exhibitors.

That is exactly where I was going with my perception comments. If a newbie comes in with an attitude that they are losing because they are new, because a Grd Ch is entered, because the person that won has been showing for years irregardless of the dog, etc - would you want them in the dog world? I wouldn't with that attitude to be honest - I understand people can change their attitude etc but with that instant attitude there is very few established exhibitors that would want to help.

Sandra has a boy that only had one testicle drop, was shown as a baby puppy but nothing more. If I was to show him as a Neuter I'd come under the "showing for years" category, cool the excuse is there. Fact that the dog (untitled) is better is forgotten because I'm a big meanie shower beating the newbie.

[poodlefan]

I suppose it comes down to to the fact that it doesn't really matter that much how existing competitors view what dogs enter neuter classes.

It matter a great deal how new exhibitors will view them. The proof of our differing arguments as to how the ring should be conducted will be their popularity.

For me what matters is their popularity with new exhibitors.

That is exactly where I was going with my perception comments. If a newbie comes in with an attitude that they are losing because they are new, because a Grd Ch is entered, because the person that won has been showing for years irregardless of the dog, etc - would you want them in the dog world? I wouldn't with that attitude to be honest - I understand people can change their attitude etc but with that instant attitude there is very few established exhibitors that would want to help.

Sandra has a boy that only had one testicle drop, was shown as a baby puppy but nothing more. If I was to show him as a Neuter I'd come under the "showing for years" category, cool the excuse is there. Fact that the dog (untitled) is better is forgotten because I'm a big meanie shower beating the newbie.

The dog would not be titled Megz. That was the exclusion I proposed. It's the combination of titled dog AND experienced handler I object to.

I agree it shouldn't be a cake walk to gain one of these. It also shouldn't be Mount Everest. If a newb concluded that they'd lost because a Gr CH with an experienced handler was entered, I'd be inclined to agree with them It's what they do with that conclusion that concerns me.

I really do think this shouldn't about giving retired titled dogs an airing.

Edited February 19, 2010 by poodlefan

[Rebanne]

A program could have been developed around the neuter championship. Can you imagine for example how useful it would be if the neuter judges provided feedback on handling? We rely on our fellow competitors for that now.

actually I had a couple of judges early on that took pity on me, more likely my dog!, and made me go around again, after telling me how to do better, so some judges already help the new comers.

[Guest Tess32]

I would enter it if I didn't have a dog with such obvious faults. I don't think allowing a champion in makes any sense at all - it's basically calling it 'champion champion' because it is being judged on the *same thing* it's already been judged on. If the only difference is desexing, then a second title is redundant.

[Rebanne]

So the assumptions have begun before the Title is even effective that's very sad.

A Grand Champion in this class does NOT automatically mean that the owner is hungry for titles for the dog.

Blanket statements like this are becoming very common aren't they? "I have a rare breed, I won't win" is another of my favourites

Perhaps those who would do this should first ask themselves what it will mean for owners of pedigreed dogs who are encouraged to try showing and who enter the same class only to find it being shown against their dogs by an experienced handler?

what's the difference in being new to showing an entire dog? Same thing happens, neuter or entire, it could be your very 1st show but you could be in straight away mixing it with the big boys.

[-Megz-]

I suppose it comes down to to the fact that it doesn't really matter that much how existing competitors view what dogs enter neuter classes.

It matter a great deal how new exhibitors will view them. The proof of our differing arguments as to how the ring should be conducted will be their popularity.

For me what matters is their popularity with new exhibitors.

That is exactly where I was going with my perception comments. If a newbie comes in with an attitude that they are losing because they are new, because a Grd Ch is entered, because the person that won has been showing for years irregardless of the dog, etc - would you want them in the dog world? I wouldn't with that attitude to be honest - I understand people can change their attitude etc but with that instant attitude there is very few established exhibitors that would want to help.

Sandra has a boy that only had one testicle drop, was shown as a baby puppy but nothing more. If I was to show him as a Neuter I'd come under the "showing for years" category, cool the excuse is there. Fact that the dog (untitled) is better is forgotten because I'm a big meanie shower beating the newbie.

The dog would not be titled Megz. That was the exclusion I proposed. It's the combination of titled dog AND experienced handler I object to.

I agree it shouldn't be a cake walk to gain one of these. It also shouldn't be Mount Everest. If a newb concluded that they'd lost because a Gr CH with an experienced handler was entered, I'd be inclined to agree with them It's what they do with that conclusion that concerns me.

I really do think this shouldn't about giving retired titled dogs an airing.

My pug was retired because she was desexed, she wasn't desexed because she was retired.

Her titles make no difference to that fact.

My Toller is titled, just a Ch, he's desexed now. If he wasn't the size of a house he'd probably come out for some fun.

Do you want the exclusion to just include Grd Ch dogs? Or all titles?? A Ch title doesn't automatically mean a quality dog, and ueven the Grd Ch title could be seen the same way.

[SpikesPuppy]

I think entering an already titled neuter has it's merits- as I suggested earlier it's a way that someone who's purchased a retired show dog to get into it, it can also be a good show of how well a dog has matured, especially those in the veteran age bracket; ie, is the dog STILL sound enough & correct?? If it's got a dipped topline, is stiff on the move, teeth have gone etc I think it should be judged to the standard and refused if it's not as it should be.

As for open shows and members comps- rare as hen's teeth down here,. In fact, our local member's comp has been put on indefinite hold sue to lack of interest :mad I had SO MUCH FUN those Thursday nights. And so did the dogs.

Open shows, so far this year I know of 2. Mum has entered one, can't remember how many in the Working Group but there are only 16 terriers. 16!!! It's in conjunction with a champ show too so who knows what that's about??? Really spewing that I didn't enter Caber now (Open shows are his forte ;) ).

But overall I understand what Poodlefan is saying and I agree with most of it- it was an opportunity to make a great class for newbies/inexperienced handlers to dip their toe in the water, so to speak at every champ show (so not at the odd Open/Member's comp), and with an end goal in mind It also just opens up the World of showing to so may more people who otherwise may not be able to or want to, keep an entire animal.

As for the needing balls to show comment- I disagree, I understand that it's relatively true but IMO it shouldn't be. Showing should be a fun hobby, a social outing, not the be all and end all of life and it certainly should not be a venue for anybody to make anyone else feel inadequate :headshake:

[hollee]

I am one who probably won't be bringing out an already-titled champ, just to get a neuter title. I have absolutely nothing against the idea, and I think it is good to encourage people into the sport who have a neutered, main-register dog who may be good enough to show. But I doubt this is the way it will work. It'll just keep existing showies bringing out their retired dogs. Again, no real problem, and yes, good for numbers.

But I dunno. I just feel that putting a neuter title on an existing champ is learning towards the overkill department. If they're a champ, they're still a champ whether they're neutered or not.

Personally I think a dog with a conformation championship should be excluded from exhibition in the neuter classes for this reason.

I am with you on this, why does a titled dog need to add another title? There are veteren classes for older "retired dogs". Is there a cut off age for general showing? Maybe at some later time there could be a class where neutered dogs are shown with the others. In the UK speyed bitches can be shown in the ordinary classes. I have long thought that they should be allowed out here- as far as the breeding aspect goes they are still crediting the breeder of them and if they fit their breed standard better than the others they should win.

Many people do not have the facilities or want to keep un-neutered dogs but would still like to show, they may only want one dog the list goes on.........

[WreckitWhippet]

There's no age limit in comformation showing and that's another gripe with many, that some remain in the ring winning for years and years.

I've got a bitch that has to be desexed shortly, the neuter title will give me something to do, to fill in the year between that and the veterans class ( few shows have veterans here, but that's another story ). She loves to show, she knows when the trailer starts getting packed and she most definately knows when she hasn't had a turn in the ring. There's no fooling her with a lucnh time lap.

If I didn't have to spey her, she'd still be shown with the others, for as long as she enjoys it.

[Sheridan]

Sadly, Grumpy is now too grumpy to enter.

[Bisart Dobes]

I don't have an issue with older / titled dogs being shown - when a dog is retired is entirely up to the owner but this 'new title' is a load of crap as far as I am concerned. This is just the start of it - give them 2 years and you will be competing for BIS against a MUTT !

I would much rather see a neutered class go ahead as they do now and would much rather see a Grand Champion Class In Group / Show run for the grands.

[poodlefan]

I don't have an issue with older / titled dogs being shown - when a dog is retired is entirely up to the owner but this 'new title' is a load of crap as far as I am concerned. This is just the start of it - give them 2 years and you will be competing for BIS against a MUTT !

I would much rather see a neutered class go ahead as they do now and would much rather see a Grand Champion Class In Group / Show run for the grands.

Rubbish. The sky is not falling Bisart. Show entries are. If we do what we've always done, we'll get what we've always got - a dying sport.

[fbc]

Would alot of GCH dogs even be neutered and if so would they be of a young enough age that they wouldt have lost some of their confirmation/teeth movement etc to make them so hard to beat now?

IMO if I had a DOG that had titled to its grand I most likely wouldnt have it neautered as it would still be capable of breeding (all going well of course )

I can imagine you may get more bitches perhaps as they would not be in such demand for breeding.

I personally

I wonder if perhaps a Novice class that you could only enter perhaps 20 times when you initially begin showing would be a good idea in regards to attracting newcomers?

I agree that any neutered dog should be judged as evenly as a non n eutered dog it is still a confirmation class

Oh maybe even a topsy ring...we had them in horse showing it could include classes similar to sweepstakes maybe colour based handler age etc to include a more relaxed and fun aspect to some shows....I do realise that alot of specialty shows already have similar clases.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I feel that grand champions should go against each other as in grandchampion sweepstakes.

I feel that the neuter class should be for untitled desexed dogs.

I have sold a few possible show dogs as pets.

These people where not into the breeding thing and basically you show to get your dog noticed as a possible brood bitch/stud dog.

The neuter title gives others a chance to show the dog.

I would not changea limited register dog over without seeing its conformation first.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I gather it's not just about newbies but also about reforming some of the negative "only valuable if you can breed with them" image of the sport.

I do think adding a Neuter title to a Grand Champ is pretty redundant.

When it comes to newbies, any strategy including this one will only work if it has fertile ground to work on. I agree with many of the comments Poodlefan has made. Much of the pontificating you read about the importance of encouraging newbies makes a lot more sense if you substitute "attractive young people who might show my dogs" for "newbie". Because frankly, the reality does not match the rhetoric.

[poodlefan]

I gather it's not just about newbies but also about reforming some of the negative "only valuable if you can breed with them" image of the sport.

It's not like every dog that gains a CH is a good breeding prospect anyway.