New Championship Title For Neutered Dogs

[poodlefan]

I have and will continue to help newbies out that look a bit lost or just need to ask questions, but I refuse to baby them, I refuse to encourage a person that refuses to see the good side of showing. There is a few posters recently that give me this impression. They want it all handed to them on a silver platter and expect people to fall at their feet and tell them it's ok if they happen to lose. I have also seen people come and go from the show ring because they refuse to ask for help.

At the end of the day it's a competition, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. The established people in the dog world started somewhere, they were newbies once too. They have done the hard yards and don't need newbies bagging them because they beat them or because they've been at it longer. They also don't need to waste their time helping people that don't want help. As I said above most newbies I have seen lately expect to be treated like they are special, they refuse to ask questions and expect the people and knowledge to come to them and that's not how it works.

I've rambled and gone off on about 6 different tangents. Completely OT now as I haven't mentioned neuters once but I think it makes sense.

I've chosen to show and I'll continue on because I don't give up easily. I was warned I'd chosen a difficult breed for competion and I accept that. Most of the time I enjoy it. But personally Megz, between spoon feeding newbs and cold shouldering them, I think there is scope to provide a slightly softer landing into the world of purebred dog exhibition than newcomers currently experience. The neuter classes were one possiblity but it is clear that experienced exhibitor attitudes will slam the door shut on that.

But it could be better than this Megz. We could have a system where people were encouraged to try the sport without having to keep a dog entire and it wasn't simply survival of the fittest. I'm not for a moment suggesting that we need to lay out red carpets strewn with flower petals but if we want the sport to thrive then there need to be changes made get the numbers up.

You clearly show in quite a different scene to me. Locally and within my Group ring there are quite a few exhibitors that are fairly new to the sport and whose company makes showing very pleasureable. They neither ask for, nor receive quarter in the ring from more experienced exhibitors. There are some more experienced exhbitors who have fallen over themselves to assist and then there are the others. I'm not leaving but I've seen the numbers of people who've attended handling classes, done a handful of shows and faded away. They weren't wimps, they just didn't find it rewarding enough to continue. Is that what the sport needs to thrive? Would it kill people to see some restricted competition where new people aren't expected to compete with those that have been in the game for life?

It continues to gobsmack me that show folk are happy to provide this valuable experience for their own children but cannot see any reason to duplicate that for adults who are newcomers outside their ranks. Whilst ever the "sink or swim" attitude prevails, expect to see numbers decline.

Edited February 19, 2010 by poodlefan

[WreckitWhippet]

It wouldn't matter if they were learning to show a neuter or in the current show format, any new comer is going to need support and mentoring.

If you don't ask for it, or happen to strike someone who spots your difficulties and offers to lend a hand, then it's not going to happen.

I am and have always been the biggest supporter of new people to showing, I will bend over backwards to help out. If more people aren't willing to do that, then I don't see how a neuter title is going to make one bit of difference.

[poodlefan]

It wouldn't matter if they were learning to show a neuter or in the current show format, any new comer is going to need support and mentoring.

If you don't ask for it, or happen to strike someone who spots your difficulties and offers to lend a hand, then it's not going to happen.

I am and have always been the biggest supporter of new people to showing, I will bend over backwards to help out. If more people aren't willing to do that, then I don't see how a neuter title is going to make one bit of difference.

The thing is, finding someone to mentor you right now is a matter of luck, not planning. We have no systems for identifying or assisting new adult handlers. The neuter championship would have been one.

If you're lucky there might be some training in your area but I'd say that's fairly unusual. If you're lucky you find some friendly faces at your first shows but some people arent'.

A program could have been developed around the neuter championship. Can you imagine for example how useful it would be if the neuter judges provided feedback on handling? We rely on our fellow competitors for that now.

What this sport needs to thrive is exactly what other sports have - induction, training and reward systems for new particpants. We have nothing formal at all UNLESS you are a junior handler.

My guess is we'll continue to reap the outcome of that for years to come. I see the current attitude towards the N Ch of "there's a prize so I'll be chasing it" from those with titled dogs as an opportunity squandered.

As far as I'm concerned the only way a GR CH should find its way into any classes other than normal conformation ones at a show is attached to a junior or new adult handler.

Edited February 19, 2010 by poodlefan

[Sandra777]

I actually not opposed to this move but I think people need to look at all of the implications. :D

What, that a dog with an actual fault might turn up in the show ring

Sorry, I am proud of the puppies I breed, whether they're paragons of physical perfection or just a little bit special.

IF established showies use these classes to get another title on a grand champion then those pet quality puppies simply won't win.

Personally I think there should be a provision for shows such as are held in NZ (under NZKC rules too), Ribbon Parades, you turn up on the day and enter for a nominal fee. The dog does not need to have papers but it is expected to look like a purebred and owners don't need to be members of anything.

They're the stage before Open Shows for judges and are held in parks and reserves all over the place.

I've been to a LOT of these over the years with baby puppies (brilliant for babies, if it's raining or cold you just don't go and no feeling you're "wasting" the entry fee) and without fail you'll get a tribe of locals out for their Saturday/Sunday morning shopping stopping in to look at the dogs and meet some breeders. Many a puppy sale has come from these events, and if they're single breed club events - whoo, frequently you end up with a bigger entry than the club's annual specialist championship show :p

I have met a lot of pet owners at ribbon parades over the years. Some have gone on to be serious show people (usually with a different dog admittedly) and many more have had the opportunity to realise shows really aren't their thing without the expense of joining clubs etc.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Sandra777

[-Megz-]

So the assumptions have begun before the Title is even effective that's very sad.

A Grand Champion in this class does NOT automatically mean that the owner is hungry for titles for the dog.

Blanket statements like this are becoming very common aren't they? "I have a rare breed, I won't win" is another of my favourites

[poodlefan]

So the assumptions have begun before the Title is even effective that's very sad.

A Grand Champion in this class does NOT automatically mean that the owner is hungry for titles for the dog.

Blanket statements like this are becoming very common aren't they? "I have a rare breed, I won't win" is another of my favourites

Perhaps those who would do this should first ask themselves what it will mean for owners of pedigreed dogs who are encouraged to try showing and who enter the same class only to find it being shown against their dogs by an experienced handler?

Edited February 19, 2010 by poodlefan

[-Megz-]

So the assumptions have begun before the Title is even effective that's very sad.

A Grand Champion in this class does NOT automatically mean that the owner is hungry for titles for the dog.

Blanket statements like this are becoming very common aren't they? "I have a rare breed, I won't win" is another of my favourites

What does it mean?

In my case, the dog enjoys being shown but was unavoidably neutered.

[-Megz-]

And more importantly, what do you think it will mean for the owners of pedigreed dogs who enter against it to try their luck at showing?

That they get experience competing against other dogs? The chance to beat an established show dog and handler? They learn ring craft with other dogs in their ring. They have someone in the same class which gives them a good person to ask questions of.

No dog is unbeatable.

[poodlefan]

And more importantly, what do you think it will mean for the owners of pedigreed dogs who enter against it to try their luck at showing?

That they get experience competing against other dogs? The chance to beat an established show dog and handler? They learn ring craft with other dogs in their ring. They have someone in the same class which gives them a good person to ask questions of.

No dog is unbeatable.

Hardly a level playing field though is it?

What I don't get is what an experienced handler with a Gr CH gains from the experience of denying the others any real chance of a prize.

Edited February 19, 2010 by poodlefan

[-Megz-]

And more importantly, what do you think it will mean for the owners of pedigreed dogs who enter against it to try their luck at showing?

That they get experience competing against other dogs? The chance to beat an established show dog and handler? They learn ring craft with other dogs in their ring. They have someone in the same class which gives them a good person to ask questions of.

No dog is unbeatable.

I'm sure that's how they'll see it too Megz. Hardly a level playing field is it?

This is what I was trying to say before. Perception and reality can be two entirely different things.

We have a dog up here that has won the majority of the BIS' for the end of last year and the first of two for this year. It's a running joke that the dog is unbeatable. It was beaten at Group level at the Feb show, didn't get RUIG either.

[-Megz-]

And more importantly, what do you think it will mean for the owners of pedigreed dogs who enter against it to try their luck at showing?

That they get experience competing against other dogs? The chance to beat an established show dog and handler? They learn ring craft with other dogs in their ring. They have someone in the same class which gives them a good person to ask questions of.

No dog is unbeatable.

Hardly a level playing field though is it?

And the conformation ring is?

[poodlefan]

And more importantly, what do you think it will mean for the owners of pedigreed dogs who enter against it to try their luck at showing?

That they get experience competing against other dogs? The chance to beat an established show dog and handler? They learn ring craft with other dogs in their ring. They have someone in the same class which gives them a good person to ask questions of.

No dog is unbeatable.

Hardly a level playing field though is it?

And the conformation ring is?

No it isn't. Statistically, the "no dog is unbeatable" line doesn't play out there either. But if you want to play with the big kids that's where you go. That's where I am and that's where I'm staying.

But you're suggesting that both rings should be the same except for parts of the dog's anatomy. I'm suggesting that first time exhibitors shouldn't have to front up with their dogs and be pitted against the equivalent of Michael Schumacher in last year's F1.

How is that supposed to be encouraging to people on their L plates? If that's what we do to them, they won't be there for long. Do you really think we should go through all the trouble of creating classes neuter entrants so that existing exhibitors have more classes to enter their experienced and titled ex show dogs?

Edited February 19, 2010 by poodlefan

[WreckitWhippet]

Actually I think they will gain more from being in a class or a points neuter line up, with competition , then they would going in doing a lap and having a judge spend two seconds going over the dog.

The bigger the classes, the more time in the ring, the more times they get to come back in and learn something

Edited February 19, 2010 by SBT123

[poodlefan]

Actually I think they will gain more from being in a class or a points neuter line up, with competition , then they would going in doing a lap and having a judge spend two seconds going over the dog.

The bigger the classes, the more time in the ring, the more times they get to come back in and learn something

I'd like their competition to be numerous but to be people like themselves with dogs like theirs Warls.. and if you put handlers with years of experience and well performed dogs against novice handlers new to the ring with an inexperienced dog, those classes IMO will never grow.

You can learn just as much without being seriously outgunned. You don't expect people in other sports to learn or remain motivated by repeatedly pitting them against the current stars.

I don't see any real spirit of competition in denying inexperienced dogs and handlers out a real chance of winning. Maybe I'm being somewhat patronising to potential entrants but if I'd been encouraged by my breeder to give showing a go and rolled up to find my neutered dog beaten by a Royal or BISS winnner, I'd be wondering why I bothered.

There is no motivation to be found in one sided competition if you're the one on the losing side.

Edited February 19, 2010 by poodlefan

[-Megz-]

No it isn't. Statistically, the "no dog is unbeatable" line doesn't play out there either. But if you want to play with the big kids that's where you go. That's where I am and that's where I'm staying.

But you're suggesting that both rings should be the same except for parts of the dog's anatomy. I'm suggesting that first time exhibitors shouldn't have to front up with their dogs and be pitted against the equivalent of Michael Schumacher in last year's F1.

How is that supposed to be encouraging to people on their L plates? If that's what we do to them, they won't be there for long. Do you really think we should go through all the trouble of creating classes neuter entrants so that existing exhibitors have more classes to enter their experienced and titled ex show dogs?

We both get each others point of view but we disagree, that's normal.

I see the Open shows and Member's Comps the place for Newbies, even to a lesser extent training classes. If they don't have the balls for the conformation ring then don't step into it. At the end of the day the Neuter Class and Title is incorporated into the Conformation ring, it is not separated like a sweepstakes class or alike. It is a class within normal conformation so I do think that it should be treated the same.

In the trial ring, a club up here suggested a "Not For Competition" class. I can't really go into it too much at the moment but this is basically a separate discipline to give a newbie the chance to enter in trial conditions without actually competing, without a winner etc. Very similar to an open show in terms of less pressure and a more learning environment.

[poodlefan]

No it isn't. Statistically, the "no dog is unbeatable" line doesn't play out there either. But if you want to play with the big kids that's where you go. That's where I am and that's where I'm staying.

But you're suggesting that both rings should be the same except for parts of the dog's anatomy. I'm suggesting that first time exhibitors shouldn't have to front up with their dogs and be pitted against the equivalent of Michael Schumacher in last year's F1.

How is that supposed to be encouraging to people on their L plates? If that's what we do to them, they won't be there for long. Do you really think we should go through all the trouble of creating classes neuter entrants so that existing exhibitors have more classes to enter their experienced and titled ex show dogs?

We both get each others point of view but we disagree, that's normal.

I see the Open shows and Member's Comps the place for Newbies, even to a lesser extent training classes. If they don't have the balls for the conformation ring then don't step into it. At the end of the day the Neuter Class and Title is incorporated into the Conformation ring, it is not separated like a sweepstakes class or alike. It is a class within normal conformation so I do think that it should be treated the same.

In the trial ring, a club up here suggested a "Not For Competition" class. I can't really go into it too much at the moment but this is basically a separate discipline to give a newbie the chance to enter in trial conditions without actually competing, without a winner etc. Very similar to an open show in terms of less pressure and a more learning environment.

Is this where we start the scratching and hair pulling?

[-Megz-]

No it isn't. Statistically, the "no dog is unbeatable" line doesn't play out there either. But if you want to play with the big kids that's where you go. That's where I am and that's where I'm staying.

But you're suggesting that both rings should be the same except for parts of the dog's anatomy. I'm suggesting that first time exhibitors shouldn't have to front up with their dogs and be pitted against the equivalent of Michael Schumacher in last year's F1.

How is that supposed to be encouraging to people on their L plates? If that's what we do to them, they won't be there for long. Do you really think we should go through all the trouble of creating classes neuter entrants so that existing exhibitors have more classes to enter their experienced and titled ex show dogs?

We both get each others point of view but we disagree, that's normal.

I see the Open shows and Member's Comps the place for Newbies, even to a lesser extent training classes. If they don't have the balls for the conformation ring then don't step into it. At the end of the day the Neuter Class and Title is incorporated into the Conformation ring, it is not separated like a sweepstakes class or alike. It is a class within normal conformation so I do think that it should be treated the same.

In the trial ring, a club up here suggested a "Not For Competition" class. I can't really go into it too much at the moment but this is basically a separate discipline to give a newbie the chance to enter in trial conditions without actually competing, without a winner etc. Very similar to an open show in terms of less pressure and a more learning environment.

Is this where we start the scratching and hair pulling?

We don't own the right breed to really get into it that much hehe

[Kavik]

Actually I think they will gain more from being in a class or a points neuter line up, with competition , then they would going in doing a lap and having a judge spend two seconds going over the dog.

The bigger the classes, the more time in the ring, the more times they get to come back in and learn something

I'd like their competition to be numerous but to be people like themselves with dogs like theirs Warls.. and if you put handlers with years of experience and well performed dogs against novice handlers new to the ring with an inexperienced dog, those classes IMO will never grow.

You can learn just as much without being seriously outgunned. You don't expect people in other sports to learn or remain motivated by repeatedly pitting them against the current stars.

I don't see any real spirit of competition in denying inexperienced dogs and handlers out a real chance of winning. Maybe I'm being somewhat patronising to potential entrants but if I'd been encouraged by my breeder to give showing a go and rolled up to find my neutered dog beaten by a Royal or BISS winnner, I'd be wondering why I bothered.

There is no motivation to be found in one sided competition if you're the one on the losing side.

[poodlefan]

I suppose it comes down to to the fact that it doesn't really matter that much how existing competitors view what dogs enter neuter classes.

It matter a great deal how new exhibitors will view them. The proof of our differing arguments as to how the ring should be conducted will be their popularity.

For me what matters is their popularity with new exhibitors.

Edited February 19, 2010 by poodlefan

[WreckitWhippet]

Dog showing is supposed to be about "the dogs" .

It's not a competition for the best handling skills, unless you are competing in JH's, it's about the dogs and how they stack up against their standards.

The neuter title is for the dog not the person on the end of the leash. A dog which by all accounts should be equal in every respect to the entire dogs, they are just minus a uterus of balls. This neuter title should still have some prestige attached to it, it is still judging conformation. It should not be about everyone dragging second rate pets out of their yards just to have a go.

I also wonder if the ability to "non award" has been factored in there somewhere, or if it's going to be an empty title that will just be handed out regardless of the quality.