Training Talk Thread

[mollipop]

Could you try doing the heel work on lead, RS. I often go back to this as a "refresher".

Your other method sounds good. I had a problem with Molly not bringing back anything that she didn't see thrown, especially the articles.

You would have to make sure your dogs didn't see you throw the seekback so they don't see it as a retrieve exercise.

Congrats on your CDX.

[ness]

I tend to hide toys and have the dogs find them if I want to do that method - ok mostly Kenz I haven't really ever bothered with Ness. I am a little more careful with Kenz re the sending and potentially rewarding sloppy heelwork because she can present a seekback and then spit out the treat or won't take the toy so the seekback is the reward - although not so much an issue now. I am less careful with Ness, but she is more doing the seekback to get the treat. So I guess RS I would ask do you think your guys are doing it for being allowed to complete the seekback or are they doing it for the treat or toy at the end.

[RubyStar]

So I guess RS I would ask do you think your guys are doing it for being allowed to complete the seekback or are they doing it for the treat or toy at the end.

To get the treat, duh, I own Labradors They don't work for nuthin'! Except Millie, she can go on praise/play with me if in the right mood (which is still a reward) but Ruby it's food or ball or she's packing up and going home!

mollipop, I certainly wouldn't let them see me throw it I will go and hide it myself first before the dogs come out, as I'd like them to be able to seek it hopefully by scent and then sight. I'm constantly working on heelwork so they are always getting refreshers, but I just want to keep it separate to this most of the time so I can perfect both portions of this exercise separately and then bring them together. If that makes sense!

SLLH, good work with the down stay with distractions! I will watch the video later

Edited July 26, 2011 by RubyStar

[RubyStar]

Are there positions in seekback heelwork? Or is it just the one pace heelwork purely with turns?

[spoilt lab lives here]

How do you train for a neat figure of 8? Ramses will follow round but lags behind no matter what pace Im doing it in.

[RubyStar]

How do you train for a neat figure of 8? Ramses will follow round but lags behind no matter what pace Im doing it in.

Try rewarding every step of the way round the figure 8 for a little bit.

[ness]

I have never seen positions in the seekback heelwork in SA - not sure what its like in WA. Our judges also only use one pace. I think I wouldn't stress to much about rewarding a slightly lesser standard heelwork if sending them for the seekback isn't the reward. I guess it depends on how often you do it. I have even been known with Ness to use food in my hand to get the heelwork I want before sending . I think it very much depends on exactly what you feel is lacking and whether it is ok - just not brilliant or where it fits on the spectrum. Kenz's heelwork in seekback is seriously ratty and it tends to push her up a notch and it can end up a mess.

[RubyStar]

I think I wouldn't stress to much about rewarding a slightly lesser standard heelwork if sending them for the seekback isn't the reward

I can understand where you're coming from if the seekback IS the reward, but in my case where it isn't, I am still setting my girls up to think crappy heelwork is acceptable. No they aren't being rewarded for it, but they are getting away with it, IYKWIM? I don't believe just because it's a seekback, that heelwork standards should drop.

I have my homework from the guru to get heelwork where I want it, so yeah, just wanting to keep it all separate for now. Unless of course it is going to stuff up the actual seekback bit dreadfully, which is why I ask!

Edited July 26, 2011 by RubyStar

[wuffles]

How do you train for a neat figure of 8? Ramses will follow round but lags behind no matter what pace Im doing it in.

Is he only lagging on the outside bend or the whole way around?

At the start I encouraged her to be fast around the outside bends by a blend of luring, exaggerated body language, moving faster, making noises like a high pitched "quick, quick, quick!" and throwing food forwards. Then I would C&T when she was in the right position and gradually faded all that over time. Also make sure your shoulders are facing the right way and you are not dropping them to look at him when he is lagging

[ness]

Like I said if your worried then just hide other things for the dog to find . Neither of mine have had to many hang ups with seekback even on our non-bowling green training grounds so suspect you won't have to many issues. You could always do something like teach them baby tracking where you walk a track, have them track to the end and use a food reward at the end.

[spoilt lab lives here]

How do you train for a neat figure of 8? Ramses will follow round but lags behind no matter what pace Im doing it in.

Is he only lagging on the outside bend or the whole way around?

At the start I encouraged her to be fast around the outside bends by a blend of luring, exaggerated body language, moving faster, making noises like a high pitched "quick, quick, quick!" and throwing food forwards. Then I would C&T when she was in the right position and gradually faded all that over time. Also make sure your shoulders are facing the right way and you are not dropping them to look at him when he is lagging

Mostly around the bends. Im going to try treats today because I train with voice and praise and my voice isnt exciting enough for him in the 8

C&T ??

Ill take notice of where my shoulders are--No doubt dropped and turned toward him Ill see how we go this afternoon and report back. Dog training was cancelled on Sat due to the wet weather so we only have 3 sessions before the trial. If we can tidy up the figure of 8 and our left about turns Ill be happy!

[Tassie]

Snap, ness .. I was going to suggest the baby tracking thing to RS. Sue H plays the game where the dog sees you walk off and put the item down, but in long grass where the dog actually has to use the known direction and then nose to find it. Party when article is found. So you could just gradually extend that - doesn't have to be with the real SB article - in fact - maybe better not. So you're teaching the tracking bit, and making the finding worthwhile. Then gradually build the retrieve in.

You could either double track - so out and back on the same line - or better, I think - single track - out to place the article, then aaway and back to the dog via a different roiute.

At work, so that probably makes no sense at all.

[Tassie]

@ sllh - I'd back RS's suggestion of splitting - one step at a time, reinforcing, rather than trying to do the whole figure. Make sure the dog actually knows where heel is, and then try not to give him chances to get out of heel position.

You're right about your head and shoulder position being something to watch - turning back towards the dog at all gives him permission to be behind (or maybe even to start a left or left about rturn - not what you want.

And I wouild also say waatch the placement of reward - it needs to be reinforcing the dog for keeping in position, which when he's on the outdside, means he will have to be travelling faster - so if anything, place slightly forward.

(Still working on this one to get it solid against distractions. ;) )

[RubyStar]

Snap, ness .. I was going to suggest the baby tracking thing to RS. Sue H plays the game where the dog sees you walk off and put the item down, but in long grass where the dog actually has to use the known direction and then nose to find it. Party when article is found. So you could just gradually extend that - doesn't have to be with the real SB article - in fact - maybe better not. So you're teaching the tracking bit, and making the finding worthwhile. Then gradually build the retrieve in.

You could either double track - so out and back on the same line - or better, I think - single track - out to place the article, then aaway and back to the dog via a different roiute.

At work, so that probably makes no sense at all.

Do I leave the dog in a sit, watching me walk off? Then I send to find once I return to dog? Would just like not to include any heelwork at the current stage if I can help it!

[Tassie]

Snap, ness .. I was going to suggest the baby tracking thing to RS. Sue H plays the game where the dog sees you walk off and put the item down, but in long grass where the dog actually has to use the known direction and then nose to find it. Party when article is found. So you could just gradually extend that - doesn't have to be with the real SB article - in fact - maybe better not. So you're teaching the tracking bit, and making the finding worthwhile. Then gradually build the retrieve in.

You could either double track - so out and back on the same line - or better, I think - single track - out to place the article, then aaway and back to the dog via a different roiute.

At work, so that probably makes no sense at all.

Do I leave the dog in a sit, watching me walk off? Then I send to find once I return to dog? Would just like not to include any heelwork at the current stage if I can help it!

Yep - initially I would just leave her in a sit, or a wait of some description - it doesn't need to be too formal - when we start training baby tracking, and when we did this one with Sue at Camp T, we could have someone just hold the dog.

Later when she knows the game, you could just have her in the car, and then just walk her over to where you started the track, and ask her to find. (When we're doing baby tracking, we actually have the dog on a normal collar and lead to make sure they're actually not deviating from the track too much - and of course, heaps of encouragement if they're on the track and working it.

Doing this sort of stuff is teaching the game of tracking, rather than a sort of formal exercise - but then it can be built into the exercise quite nicely when you're ready. I think

[Seita]

Can I please ask people's thoughts on training the seekback sometimes without doing the heel pattern?

I know the point is for them to retrace your path, hopefully by scent, to where you so carelessly dropped your article! But in my case where I still find heelwork isn't as sharp as I'd like, I really don't want to encourage sloppy heelwork for the benefit of training a seekback. I've trained it in a small area using the heelwork method, starting with dropping the seekback near the start peg, but on Sunday night I thought I would show the article to the dogs (they want to take it into their mouth instead of scent it!) then head out the backyard on my own and throw the article somewhere. The yard wasn't very well lit and the grass a little longish. Then one at a time I got the dogs out and asked them to "find" it. Both of them went hunting in the dark and found it and brought it back

Just wondering if there is any issue with me mixing up the training like this?

I'm about to go back to basics and retrain my seekback completely as I want my dog to track it properly so I would teach the dog to track. Something that might work with your dogs is start out only a short distance, walk forward dropping a treat every step only a few steps to start with and then build up, leave something for them to find and then retrace your steps back to the beginning (doesn't have to be perfect but near enough) and then send your dog. Being a lab she'll check every step for a treat until she gets to the end and then finds the item. It's been suggested to me to use something other than your normal seekback article and mix it up so the dog really learns to use it's nose. Then over time build up to longer distances, decrease how much food you are dropping and then add turns. This is what I'm going to use with Ella when I go back to basics to teach her this properly. I want this exercise to be useful and at the moment it's not, if I dropped my keys in the park she wouldn't have a hope of finding them!

Are there positions in seekback heelwork? Or is it just the one pace heelwork purely with turns?

There aren't supposed to be and it should be in normal pace but you do get some special judges who like to mix things up. We have one judge here in QLD who always puts a drop in her pattern and then drops the article where you stopped to make it easier for the dog to find but technically it's not allowed.

[caffy]

Can I please ask people's thoughts on training the seekback sometimes without doing the heel pattern?

I know the point is for them to retrace your path, hopefully by scent, to where you so carelessly dropped your article! But in my case where I still find heelwork isn't as sharp as I'd like, I really don't want to encourage sloppy heelwork for the benefit of training a seekback. I've trained it in a small area using the heelwork method, starting with dropping the seekback near the start peg, but on Sunday night I thought I would show the article to the dogs (they want to take it into their mouth instead of scent it!) then head out the backyard on my own and throw the article somewhere. The yard wasn't very well lit and the grass a little longish. Then one at a time I got the dogs out and asked them to "find" it. Both of them went hunting in the dark and found it and brought it back

Just wondering if there is any issue with me mixing up the training like this?

I play the game "findies" with my guys..very informal and and just hide anything with your scent on it be it in the house or in the yard. I hide the object and grab the collar (remember the Sue H collar grab to gee them up) and ask "are you gonna do Findies"...they go ballistic and tear off to find the object. "Findies" is my cue for SB in the ring. What you're doing in the yard sounds spot on to me :D With this as a foundation it won't take long to get a formal SB down the track (pardon the pun).

I think forget all the formalities and worrying about how this will affect that...just make it fun and your dogs will respond to that more than anything :D :D

[RubyStar]

Thanks Seita and caffy. I do like the "findies" game idea and think that will work best for me at the current time. Your idea sounds great too Seita but I just don't want any heelwork involved or anything that resembles the finished exercise right now (ie. walking a track) I think I will play more with this game of find things in the backyard and make it a huge game. Dog knows I need to make things more like a game!! caffy, would I use things I have 2 of so I can show them 1 and send them to find the other so they know what they're looking for?

Edit: so caffy, is your command in the ring "findies"? :p

Edited July 26, 2011 by RubyStar

[RubyStar]

Snap, ness .. I was going to suggest the baby tracking thing to RS. Sue H plays the game where the dog sees you walk off and put the item down, but in long grass where the dog actually has to use the known direction and then nose to find it. Party when article is found. So you could just gradually extend that - doesn't have to be with the real SB article - in fact - maybe better not. So you're teaching the tracking bit, and making the finding worthwhile. Then gradually build the retrieve in.

You could either double track - so out and back on the same line - or better, I think - single track - out to place the article, then aaway and back to the dog via a different roiute.

At work, so that probably makes no sense at all.

Do I leave the dog in a sit, watching me walk off? Then I send to find once I return to dog? Would just like not to include any heelwork at the current stage if I can help it!

Yep - initially I would just leave her in a sit, or a wait of some description - it doesn't need to be too formal - when we start training baby tracking, and when we did this one with Sue at Camp T, we could have someone just hold the dog.

Later when she knows the game, you could just have her in the car, and then just walk her over to where you started the track, and ask her to find. (When we're doing baby tracking, we actually have the dog on a normal collar and lead to make sure they're actually not deviating from the track too much - and of course, heaps of encouragement if they're on the track and working it.

Doing this sort of stuff is teaching the game of tracking, rather than a sort of formal exercise - but then it can be built into the exercise quite nicely when you're ready. I think

Thanks Tassie This sounds great too and I think I might do some of this as well as I can still make this a game that doesn't involve her heeling with me.

[caffy]

Thanks Seita and caffy. I do like the "findies" game idea and think that will work best for me at the current time. Your idea sounds great too Seita but I just don't want any heelwork involved or anything that resembles the finished exercise right now (ie. walking a track) I think I will play more with this game of find things in the backyard and make it a huge game. Dog knows I need to make things more like a game!! caffy, would I use things I have 2 of so I can show them 1 and send them to find the other so they know what they're looking for?

Edit: so caffy, is your command in the ring "findies"? :p

I just hide one thing...and their job is to find that...why show them, they are using their nose?

My cue is "find".

You are getting all formal again RS...just play the game! :D