bedazzledx2 Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 (edited) Sometimes its good to have a shaping word or phrase 'show me what you've got' or 'lets play a game' not a cue or command. The other thing I like to do is to put the cue on a behaviour once it is taught. Then I don't reward it if I haven't asked for it. Dog's also get things like 'try something else' For Seita, sometimes a little help in the form of a lure can get the behaviour but try to wean both of you off luring asap. Have you tried 101 things to do with a box? Karen Prior. I tend not to do a huge amount of free shaping as I like to work towards an end behaviour but I love the shaping process. Edited August 4, 2010 by bedazzledx2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 I had similar problems with Cider when I was trying to start off the 2 x 2 weavers - she would just stand there and look at me, so it was a case of spending a session C/T for lots of different things and she got the idea pretty quickly of offering behaviours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 Just a question on Shaping for those who do this a lot. Do you watch your dog or do you look away a bit and watch using your peripherals? The thought crossed my mind as I started shaping this exact thing with Mack last night and the more I watched him the more he just chose to sit there and make eye contact with me! I think I'll need to lure him onto the book as he's just sooo focused on me that he doesn't notice the book! (not that I'm complaining!) Seita - I am not sure if you have done any shaping before with Mack or not - but you need to teach the dog to offer behaviours - so arm yourself with a clicker (or your yes word) and treats and start clicking for anything in normal everyday living to begin with, just so he gets the hang of offering you behaviours rather than sitting there watching you. I haven't done much shaping full stop ever. I lured most things for Ella but as Mack isn't overly food driven and it's a little challenging to lure with a tug toy I thought I'd try a bit of shaping. He was starting to get the hang of what I wanted last night (interaction with the phone book on the floor) after I semi lured him towards it. Sometimes its good to have a shaping word or phrase 'show me what you've got' or 'lets play a game' not a cue or command. The other thing I like to do is to put the cue on a behaviour once it is taught. Then I don't reward it if I haven't asked for it. Dog's also get things like 'try something else' For Seita, sometimes a little help in the form of a lure can get the behaviour but try to wean both of you off luring asap. Have you tried 101 things to do with a box? Karen Prior. I tend not to do a huge amount of free shaping as I like to work towards an end behaviour but I love the shaping process. I don't think I'll do much free shaping either but shaping things like putting front feet on the book or at a later stage going to the box I will do plenty of with Mack I think. Mostly cos I've never done much shaping before so I'd like to play around with different methods to teach things. Has anyone ever shaped the heel position or front etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 I shaped the retrieve and the box but not heel from the beginning. I might do that for the next one though. I would suggest that you play shaping games with unimportant stuff first. Tricks and things that won't matter in competition as its really easy to shape something you don't want unintentionally! Its such a refined method of training and you get what you reward. Just a question on Shaping for those who do this a lot. Do you watch your dog or do you look away a bit and watch using your peripherals? The thought crossed my mind as I started shaping this exact thing with Mack last night and the more I watched him the more he just chose to sit there and make eye contact with me! I think I'll need to lure him onto the book as he's just sooo focused on me that he doesn't notice the book! (not that I'm complaining!) Seita - I am not sure if you have done any shaping before with Mack or not - but you need to teach the dog to offer behaviours - so arm yourself with a clicker (or your yes word) and treats and start clicking for anything in normal everyday living to begin with, just so he gets the hang of offering you behaviours rather than sitting there watching you. I haven't done much shaping full stop ever. I lured most things for Ella but as Mack isn't overly food driven and it's a little challenging to lure with a tug toy I thought I'd try a bit of shaping. He was starting to get the hang of what I wanted last night (interaction with the phone book on the floor) after I semi lured him towards it. Sometimes its good to have a shaping word or phrase 'show me what you've got' or 'lets play a game' not a cue or command. The other thing I like to do is to put the cue on a behaviour once it is taught. Then I don't reward it if I haven't asked for it. Dog's also get things like 'try something else' For Seita, sometimes a little help in the form of a lure can get the behaviour but try to wean both of you off luring asap. Have you tried 101 things to do with a box? Karen Prior. I tend not to do a huge amount of free shaping as I like to work towards an end behaviour but I love the shaping process. I don't think I'll do much free shaping either but shaping things like putting front feet on the book or at a later stage going to the box I will do plenty of with Mack I think. Mostly cos I've never done much shaping before so I'd like to play around with different methods to teach things. Has anyone ever shaped the heel position or front etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flick_Mac Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 Thanks for the suggestions everyone! I think he's a bit of a concrete thinker and just kind of stands there staring at me for the treat I'll try the shaping to get him to offer behaviours... he tends just to sit though! Any other ways to encourage offering behaviours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mas1981 Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 I had similar problems with Cider when I was trying to start off the 2 x 2 weavers - she would just stand there and look at me, so it was a case of spending a session C/T for lots of different things and she got the idea pretty quickly of offering behaviours. I had the exact same thing happen with Mason and teaching weaves, he is so used to being rewarded for looking at me that he now does just that a lot of the time lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 Thanks for the suggestions everyone! I think he's a bit of a concrete thinker and just kind of stands there staring at me for the treat I'll try the shaping to get him to offer behaviours... he tends just to sit though! Any other ways to encourage offering behaviours? The gurus must be off training , so I'll have a go. As bedazzledx2 says, it's really good to play around with shaping on stuff that doesn't matter. And it's really good to have a prop - like a box, or a target, or as I did with my agility girl when she was about 7, with a balance disc I was using as a wobble board for Rory. Then you can either sit or stand somewhere fairly near, and initially, just click/mark any kind of interaction with the prop, then start refining it. When you reward, vary between giving the pup the food from you had, or throwing it away from the prop - the throwing is particularly important to get a dog moving instead of just sitting there or just looking at you. As the dog starts to get the idea, you can start shifting your criteria gradually - so it might be - c/t for just going near the prop, then stop rewarding that and wait so you can c/t for paying attention to it (however briefly), then stop rewarding just casual attention and c/t a closer approach to the prop, then ... up to say a nose touch, or paw touch, one paw, two paws .... your imagination and the physical situation are really the only limit. For this sort of playing round with offering behaviours, you don't have to worry about putting a cue on anything - unless you see something yo really want to capture. The more you and the dog play the shaping game, the easier it becomes for them. It does require patience and careful watching on your part - but that's good for us. Interesting things can happen - my Kirra at age 7, with little free shaping history, got really impatient when I tried with the balance disc - threw all sorts of other behaviours at me, and got quite cranky and whingy when I didn't do anything - but once she got a few c/t for interaction with the disc, she started giving me stuff with the disc much more rapidly. Just an interesting little sidelight - I can remember Mary Ray saying she will often use 'free time' with her dogs, just for fun, and to see what she gets - and she gets different behaviours depending on her body position - standing, sitting or lying down. Fun to experiment with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 Just an interesting little sidelight - I can remember Mary Ray saying she will often use 'free time' with her dogs, just for fun, and to see what she gets - and she gets different behaviours depending on her body position - standing, sitting or lying down. Fun to experiment with. LOL If I sat down or lay down the only behaviour I'd get from Mack and (possibly Ella unless I gave her a command) would be "get mugged"! I've been doing exactly what you described with Mack with a phone book but have had to encourage and gently lure (by standing on the opposite side and encouraging him to investigate it) to get him to pay it any attention so I could actually reward him! I've done 2 sessions now and he's getting better at it but it'll probably take another session or two for him to really start offering behaviours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 It is interesting that I struggled to get Poppy to offer behavior. Just had very long staring contests, lol. But out on sheep she totally changes and it is like 'no idiot I need to do this', she is usually right too! Brock was the same. But Amber will try some different things. I haven't done anything different with Amber so maybe the dog's personality plays a big part in shaping. Something I got from my clinic with the US herding trainer was waiting for the dog to figure it out. Not just wait a little bit and resort to luring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted August 5, 2010 Share Posted August 5, 2010 You could speed it up a bit by clicking when he's on the book and treating him there and then throw a piece of food so he has to get off to get it. Do this a couple of times and then wait him out. He should wonder what he got clciked for and be try to figure it out. Just an interesting little sidelight - I can remember Mary Ray saying she will often use 'free time' with her dogs, just for fun, and to see what she gets - and she gets different behaviours depending on her body position - standing, sitting or lying down. Fun to experiment with. LOL If I sat down or lay down the only behaviour I'd get from Mack and (possibly Ella unless I gave her a command) would be "get mugged"! I've been doing exactly what you described with Mack with a phone book but have had to encourage and gently lure (by standing on the opposite side and encouraging him to investigate it) to get him to pay it any attention so I could actually reward him! I've done 2 sessions now and he's getting better at it but it'll probably take another session or two for him to really start offering behaviours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted August 6, 2010 Share Posted August 6, 2010 Mum visited Strauss in Quarantine today and rang me to say he now sits in heel position looking up and comes racing in when his name is called and he is really really really food orientated Bedazzled is visiting him on Monday and she has 1 hour to teach him heeling, cop and sit stays The lady who takes Lexi for agility is visiting him Monday week - so her task is contacts and weaving which means by the time he escapes on the 20th he should know pretty much everything :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraNik Posted August 6, 2010 Share Posted August 6, 2010 Mum visited Strauss in Quarantine today and rang me to say he now sits in heel position looking up and comes racing in when his name is called and he is really really really food orientated Bedazzled is visiting him on Monday and she has 1 hour to teach him heeling, cop and sit stays The lady who takes Lexi for agility is visiting him Monday week - so her task is contacts and weaving :D which means by the time he escapes on the 20th he should know pretty much everything :D He is too cute! I can't wait to see his progress! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted August 6, 2010 Share Posted August 6, 2010 Mum visited Strauss in Quarantine today and rang me to say he now sits in heel position looking up and comes racing in when his name is called and he is really really really food orientated Bedazzled is visiting him on Monday and she has 1 hour to teach him heeling, cop and sit stays The lady who takes Lexi for agility is visiting him Monday week - so her task is contacts and weaving :D which means by the time he escapes on the 20th he should know pretty much everything :D Who is going to teach him the BIS winning show stand and adorable face for the judges then? (well the adorable face bit comes naturally ;) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted August 6, 2010 Share Posted August 6, 2010 Nice to hear you have recruited enough people to have him fully trained by the time he leaves Quarantine Ptolomy . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggy Posted August 6, 2010 Author Share Posted August 6, 2010 Mum visited Strauss in Quarantine today and rang me to say he now sits in heel position looking up and comes racing in when his name is called and he is really really really food orientated Bedazzled is visiting him on Monday and she has 1 hour to teach him heeling, cop and sit stays :p The lady who takes Lexi for agility is visiting him Monday week - so her task is contacts and weaving ;) which means by the time he escapes on the 20th he should know pretty much everything Got some handy connections there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted August 6, 2010 Share Posted August 6, 2010 Nice to hear you have recruited enough people to have him fully trained by the time he leaves Quarantine Ptolomy :p ;) . So when's his first trial, Ptolomy . You do know that all these people who claim to be going there to train your baby, are really just going to have massive cuddles with him, don't you. You must be getting excited about getting him out - he looks absolutely gorgeous, and scarily smart. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted August 6, 2010 Share Posted August 6, 2010 (edited) Dock Diving Dalmatian on Letterman right now Pretty friggin' impressive jump! More doggies coming up. But I'm almost asleep Edited August 6, 2010 by RubyStar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted August 6, 2010 Share Posted August 6, 2010 Wake up, valley! A Chessie is diving next (aaaaand, I recognised it as a Chessie before the woman said so ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted August 6, 2010 Share Posted August 6, 2010 Saw that while I was in the waiting room at Murdoch very late!!! Bloody dogs got into 2 family sized blocks of dark chocolate with sultanas!!!!! (not mine and I had no idea that it was there grrrr) Phoned Murdoch and they said that 300 grams would be a toxic dose for one dog. It was 400 grams total plus some white chocky so we had no idea who got what, so off we went and paid a bucket load of money for them to chuck up!!!!! The dock diving was impressive though!!!! Dock Diving Dalmatian on Letterman right now Pretty friggin' impressive jump! More doggies coming up. But I'm almost asleep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted August 6, 2010 Share Posted August 6, 2010 Wake up, valley! A Chessie is diving next (aaaaand, I recognised it as a Chessie before the woman said so ;)) Chessies do very well in dock diving. I'm sorry I missed this. Badazzled glad the dogs are ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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