Mason_Gibbs Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Great clip, love the way he puts his head on the floor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Does Mack have a play retrieve Seita? Will he fetch and hold things in his mouth aside from when your trying to shape him to hold and carry things? I know he tugs as I have seen video but obviously don't think you want to start with holding a tug toy. I had a similar issue with Ness and had it suggested to shape a retrieve using a toy that she was happy to play with before introducing a DB. So I went away and taught a hold using something she was happy to carry - a stuffed bear. That enabled me to build a little duration on the hold so when I came to reintroducing the DB we had a little more to work with. Yes he has a play retrieve but still won't hold it for any length of time that way either. Plus when I do a play retrieve I get mouthing on the article. Seita I stop clicking for mouth on and start clicking for longer holds. Is he mouthing though? Check his little teeth. Oh I've stopped marking mouth on in the hopes that he would start to close his mouth on it properly but he doesn't and then he loses interest because nothing is happening. He's not mouthing when I'm shaping the hold, he just sort of bites at it briefly and sometimes only just touches his teeth briefly to whatever I'm using but doesn't close his mouth on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Seita I stop clicking for mouth on and start clicking for longer holds. Is he mouthing though? Check his little teeth. Oh I've stopped marking mouth on in the hopes that he would start to close his mouth on it properly but he doesn't and then he loses interest because nothing is happening. He's not mouthing when I'm shaping the hold, he just sort of bites at it briefly and sometimes only just touches his teeth briefly to whatever I'm using but doesn't close his mouth on it. lol I meant to write teething not mouthing I would get super excited about the dumbell. Moving it behind my back and back out really quickly. Get some rapid treating for contact going and get him a bit revved up. If the object is still in your hand he doesn't have to hold on to it, you just want mouth on it reliably. Then put it on the ground and start again. Amber moved straight to mouth on the dumbell at this stage and didn't try and nose it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathq Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 This is not quite a brag but still..... Last night first trial for Coco and I for the year and things were going great nice seekback, directed jumping using my new plan of attack of signals only to stop her taking the wrong jump worked, articles good then signals. She worked not her best bit wide particlularly on the about turns which I have been working on and improving but still acceptable get to the final return to heel and she only goes part way round big fat zero. wonderful gloves especially as the ring was quite dark . So came home with the knowledge 2 more steps from her and we would have had our first UD leg...At least I know she can do it all now Like I said not quite a brag but still pretty happy we are almost there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 (edited) The only reason I asked about the play retrieve is if its just a case of won't hold it while sitting in front have you tried asking for him to walk with it in his mouth and then asking for a sit. It might help it might not. Edited February 26, 2011 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 This is not quite a brag but still.....Last night first trial for Coco and I for the year and things were going great nice seekback, directed jumping using my new plan of attack of signals only to stop her taking the wrong jump worked, articles good then signals. She worked not her best bit wide particlularly on the about turns which I have been working on and improving but still acceptable get to the final return to heel and she only goes part way round big fat zero. wonderful gloves especially as the ring was quite dark . So came home with the knowledge 2 more steps from her and we would have had our first UD leg...At least I know she can do it all now Like I said not quite a brag but still pretty happy we are almost there Bugger kathq - so near and yet so far. Do you think it had anything to do with your signal??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathq Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 This is not quite a brag but still.....Last night first trial for Coco and I for the year and things were going great nice seekback, directed jumping using my new plan of attack of signals only to stop her taking the wrong jump worked, articles good then signals. She worked not her best bit wide particlularly on the about turns which I have been working on and improving but still acceptable get to the final return to heel and she only goes part way round big fat zero. wonderful gloves especially as the ring was quite dark . So came home with the knowledge 2 more steps from her and we would have had our first UD leg...At least I know she can do it all now Like I said not quite a brag but still pretty happy we are almost there Bugger kathq - so near and yet so far. Do you think it had anything to do with your signal??? Have pulled it to pieces a million times in my head since. Could have been my signal as I did do an extended/exagerated one as I was quite worried about the hundreds of moths that were about that were coming up in clouds as you stepped - and she is a bit phobic about bugs. And i could have confused her with that as my signals are normally quite small. I'm putting it down to learning curve on the part of the handler in the "trust your dog" portion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 WA people I am looking for some scent disrimination articles, can someone let me know where I can get some please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 OSS you can order scent discrimination articles through here - http://obedienceproducts.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Seita I stop clicking for mouth on and start clicking for longer holds. Is he mouthing though? Check his little teeth. Oh I've stopped marking mouth on in the hopes that he would start to close his mouth on it properly but he doesn't and then he loses interest because nothing is happening. He's not mouthing when I'm shaping the hold, he just sort of bites at it briefly and sometimes only just touches his teeth briefly to whatever I'm using but doesn't close his mouth on it. lol I meant to write teething not mouthing I would get super excited about the dumbell. Moving it behind my back and back out really quickly. Get some rapid treating for contact going and get him a bit revved up. If the object is still in your hand he doesn't have to hold on to it, you just want mouth on it reliably. Then put it on the ground and start again. Amber moved straight to mouth on the dumbell at this stage and didn't try and nose it. nope not teething. I have tried what you suggested already and he still only grabs at it and spits it immediately, and if I do what you suggest I will turn the dumbell into a prey item so I get drive for the thing I'm asking him to hold... which is not something I want from him as I want him to view the retrieve or the hold as an opportunity to earn a reward rather than make the retrieve the reward. The only reason I asked about the play retrieve is if its just a case of won't hold it while sitting in front have you tried asking for him to walk with it in his mouth and then asking for a sit. It might help it might not. he will only carry it while he is bringing it back to me and then spits it out immediately. I'm trying to teach him that the game only continues if he delivers the toy to my hand rather than the ground so am hoping that he'll figure out that he needs to hold it until I get my hand on it and then I'll be able to increase how long he holds it for... but it's still taking a while for him to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hi Seita - just curious as to why you don't want him to view the retrieve as a reward? My 2 dogs are at either end of the spectrum in terms of love/hate relationship with retrieving and I don't really have a perspective on which is easier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 TSD - I am not sure I could actually prevent Kenz from thinking the retrieve is some sort of reward. I just have to watch that what I do immediately preceeding a retrieve is something I want to reward. So I have to be super careful with things like seekback heelwork (she thinks finding the seekback is a reward) or even the 4 or 5 paces leading up to a DB throw - if its even the slightest bit crooked I now refuse to throw the DB. For a long time I couldn't even get her to take a reward while the DB was out. Lucky her DB retrieves have always been pretty accurate including her presents. She will now take a tug reward and very occasionally food as a reward (only her meal and only if she is super hungry) after a retrieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 It's really interesting now that I've gone to the dark side (i.e. retrieving) The dogs are super keen to retrieve and we often throw a "happy bumper" as a reward for a nice present or nice handling etc. They still don't mind gobbling up some chicken though if presented with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 (edited) TSD nope I suffered trying to teach Kenz articles early on when she would have nothing to do with anything else I offered as a reward. Just lucky she also clued in to scenting and returning with the correct article . She would bring it back and I would offer her a treat and she would take one look at the treat and turn her nose completely up at it and a tug reward didn't rate either. I still have to be careful occasionally with her. I will throw a DB and if the DB is still out she will not always take a tug but would prefer the DB thrown again. I guess I can see how it could develop some really sloppy obedience behaviors that way. Although obviously it works in retrieving :D. I wonder if the difference lies in the "she is still happy to gobble up chicken if offered". It becomes a little tricky to polish a behavior that the dog considers self-rewarding to the extent that they will take no other external reward. Not sure if this is part of the logic or not just know its one I have battled with and continue to battle with. ETA. Although I know some obedience handlers in the states (and I am sure there are some here as well although don't personally know of any) who specifically only reward there dog with "ring objects" when they train. Edited February 27, 2011 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 (edited) ness, I guess that's the difficulty in retrieving because it is incredibly self-rewarding and is done at such a distance. It's very easy for a dog to 'blow the handler off' because they think they KNOW where the bird/dummy is. Not good when they have to be picked up in the right order or you get DQ'd!!! But that comes back to taking each step really, really, really slowly, proofing the daylights out of it and not putting the dog in the situation where it thinks it has a choice to make a decision - Lablover has good advice about that and I am learning not to jump ahead in training. In terms of balance of rewards I love the precision of food (and am also more familiar with it as a training aid) so have certainly trained that from the start with Em. She'll take anything you offer - food, play, squeaky toy, retrieve and cuddles. ETA: She also tugs like a fiend but I'm not experienced enough to risk ruining her lovely mouth so will hold off on that for a while. Edited February 27, 2011 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 nope not teething. I have tried what you suggested already and he still only grabs at it and spits it immediately, and if I do what you suggest I will turn the dumbell into a prey item so I get drive for the thing I'm asking him to hold... which is not something I want from him as I want him to view the retrieve or the hold as an opportunity to earn a reward rather than make the retrieve the reward. I bring the dumbell out quickly but then I hold it still. Prey drive shouldn't be triggered like that. Rather then building drive I am looking to build value for the object. Worked pretty well with Poppy as she will steal any plastic dumbell she sees on the ground Are you following the Shirley Chong method? The dog isn't required to hold the dumbell until quite a way through the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I had problems with Struass holding - he would happily run around with a toy in his mouth but would drop it like a hot potato if I went anywhere near him. Throwing something for him he would run out to it and may or may not have picked it up. I decided to give Shirley's method a go and we got to the point where I could hold the BD and he would put his mouth on it, or touch it with his mouth/teeth and I would C/T but there we stalled. I kept trying for a few weeks but felt nothing I did helped me move forward (sounds a similar point at where you are at Seita). So I went to see Sue H and asked for help. She sat in a chair with a truck load of treats and in less than 2 minutes had him taking the db and holding it. So in 2 minutes she had achieved what I hadn't in weeks. From then on ever time I brought the db out he would get so excited and I never had any problems with him bringing me and holding things again. In fact his latest love is books, encyclopedias, dictionaries, you name it, if you leave it laying around he will find it and bring it to me - not always with the cover intact!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 OSS you can order scent discrimination articles through here - http://obedienceproducts.com/ What an excellent site - thank you - although I am sure my Credit Card won't like it much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I had problems with Struass holding - he would happily run around with a toy in his mouth but would drop it like a hot potato if I went anywhere near him. Throwing something for him he would run out to it and may or may not have picked it up. I decided to give Shirley's method a go and we got to the point where I could hold the BD and he would put his mouth on it, or touch it with his mouth/teeth and I would C/T but there we stalled. I kept trying for a few weeks but felt nothing I did helped me move forward (sounds a similar point at where you are at Seita).So I went to see Sue H and asked for help. She sat in a chair with a truck load of treats and in less than 2 minutes had him taking the db and holding it. So in 2 minutes she had achieved what I hadn't in weeks. From then on ever time I brought the db out he would get so excited and I never had any problems with him bringing me and holding things again. In fact his latest love is books, encyclopedias, dictionaries, you name it, if you leave it laying around he will find it and bring it to me - not always with the cover intact!!! sounds very similar P. Did SH just keep following the SC method or did she do something different? I've been doing SC with Mack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I had problems with Struass holding - he would happily run around with a toy in his mouth but would drop it like a hot potato if I went anywhere near him. Throwing something for him he would run out to it and may or may not have picked it up. I decided to give Shirley's method a go and we got to the point where I could hold the BD and he would put his mouth on it, or touch it with his mouth/teeth and I would C/T but there we stalled. I kept trying for a few weeks but felt nothing I did helped me move forward (sounds a similar point at where you are at Seita).So I went to see Sue H and asked for help. She sat in a chair with a truck load of treats and in less than 2 minutes had him taking the db and holding it. So in 2 minutes she had achieved what I hadn't in weeks. From then on ever time I brought the db out he would get so excited and I never had any problems with him bringing me and holding things again. In fact his latest love is books, encyclopedias, dictionaries, you name it, if you leave it laying around he will find it and bring it to me - not always with the cover intact!!! sounds very similar P. Did SH just keep following the SC method or did she do something different? I've been doing SC with Mack Her timing with the rewards was much better than mine and thats all it took to get him on the right track again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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