OSoSwift Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) Still figuring out the pre-trial routine but I don't feed in the morning and generally we have a large road trip anyway. On the day I do loose lead walking to warm up, a few positions and a little heeling and that is it. Don't generally train the day before, but Lewis quite likes it so maybe a very short training session?? not sure yet. Edited February 22, 2011 by OSoSwift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 So when you train, does the no reward mark that you give end the exercise and you start again? Or does the no reward mark mean try again within the same exercise if that makes sense? It is different to what i am used to so just trying to understand it. If you did a sit and it was crooked and you didn't want want to heel would you NRM? To answer the trial day procedure question- for me it would depend on the dog. One of mine would be better to have no training for 2-3 days before a trial, the boys would do better with little training sessions the day before. I wouldn't feed in the morning- but i don't usually anyway. Cos, if I'm training something new or in a different setting I often just wait it out. Like a crooked sit with Em - and she'll cotton on and wriggle (or SPRING!) into position. If Zig gives me a crooked sit (because it's more distraction with him rather than not knowing), I'll often just say "ah well" and he will rear up and back into position. For me it definitely means "you didn't get it right but you are not in trouble and let's have another shot so you can get a jackpot". I find that it really helps a dog to understand the exercise when they are at the 'is this right or is this wrong?' point....for example I remember setting Zig up for a recall in the early days and he was so enthusiastic he broke early. I'd say "ah well" and walk him without fuss back to his starting point and make it easier (he would be wagging his tail like mad) - jackpot like crazy too when he got it. After a couple of sessions he absolutely 100% understood what I wanted and he has never, ever broken a recall since no matter how wound up and excited he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 TSD- in that case where you use 'ah well' and the dog adjusts do you mark and reward at that point? Or release from that, give a lower level reward and set it up again as a separate exercise for a potential jackpot. Does you consider the 'ah well' to double as a release? ie- you can move out of position rather than 'please try again and fix that position now'? I find it so interesting that it seems we all do things a little bit differently- but the dogs clearly still understand what we're doing. I guess it means that consistency, motivation and timing are the most important things regardless of how and when you use NRM's etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I find it so interesting that it seems we all do things a little bit differently- but the dogs clearly still understand what we're doing. I guess it means that consistency, motivation and timing are the most important things regardless of how and when you use NRM's etc. That is what I was thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 TSD- in that case where you use 'ah well' and the dog adjusts do you mark and reward at that point? Or release from that, give a lower level reward and set it up again as a separate exercise for a potential jackpot. Does you consider the 'ah well' to double as a release? ie- you can move out of position rather than 'please try again and fix that position now'?I find it so interesting that it seems we all do things a little bit differently- but the dogs clearly still understand what we're doing. I guess it means that consistency, motivation and timing are the most important things regardless of how and when you use NRM's etc. No, it's definitely not a release - it's always try again. Sometimes I'll mark it with praise and then set him up to do it properly and jackpot. Depends a bit on the circumstances. It's very effective but only in small doses and I have to keep it really light with Zig. I think it's about the dog too - Em has a much higher desire to please me (dreadful description but you know what I mean) than Zig did to begin with - I've had to really build motivation with Zig but push him too hard and he's gone. Em just bounces back if I make a mistake but Zig is not so forgiving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Thats how i use it as well. I find my dogs respond very well to a NRM once they understand it- i probably use it most for heel but like you, need to use it sparingly with one of my dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 NRM is always a try again for mine as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I use a LRS instead of a NRM. I figure my animals don't need to know when they haven't earned a reward because it's pretty self evident. They haven't performed to criteria because they haven't got a click yet. If they are a bit stumped, I move them or myself to prompt a reset. I seem to remember Ken Ramirez showing a video of someone that was very good at NRMs to illustrate what it should look like if you use one. I don't see the point and probably never will. Occasionally I let my human need to verbalise get the better of me and I interrupt what was about to be a response I wasn't looking for. It's really over-controlling and counter-productive to everything I aim to achieve with my animals, and tragically, it works really well with Erik in particular who has good bounceback and is quite persistent. All I'm doing is feeding him too much information and messing with his problem-solving abilities. I try to keep my mouth shut when I'm training. Otherwise I start doing things I later regret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraNik Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Jedi and I have been busy getting ready for Open. I think I need DB throwing lessons but everything is coming together. He has one more trial in novice and then we have two I will change to open in March even if we just do the ring work and ditch stays. He's doing well with OOS but I don't want to push him too hard too fast. Does anyone have any general tips for the change from novice to open? Or just keep going the way we're going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I would suspect just keep going the way you are going TerraNik - if Jedi is happy with the exercises then no real issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraNik Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Any handler tips? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Practice your DB throwing without the dog or warn the judge and stewards to wear a hard hat . I don't really find a huge difference between Novice and Open. I guess the real difference would be that Open is a little longer in duration so you might want the dog use to working for a little longer before it gets a reward. Suppose its also useful if you have built up a range of secondary reinforcers that you can take into the ring with you and use to keep the dog enthused over the course of the round. So things like hand touches, quick tricks etc. Edited February 24, 2011 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Toby just did a 30 sec out of sight sit stay and about 30 secs in sight He remebers his finishes (although they could do with some re-tuning )AND I have decided to start doing heel work with him He is also starting to get 'stand' and stand stays I was stewarding at a mock obedience trial last night and it gave me hope that Toby may one day be able to do CCD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I was stewarding at a mock obedience trial last night and it gave me hope that Toby may one day be able to do CCD. Of course he will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I was stewarding at a mock obedience trial last night and it gave me hope that Toby may one day be able to do CCD. Of course he will! It's a very far off day though Maybe 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I was stewarding at a mock obedience trial last night and it gave me hope that Toby may one day be able to do CCD. Of course he will! It's a very far off day though Maybe 2015 Which sounds around the time Ruby might get her first Open pass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Trixie and Toby can debut together Valley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Trixie and Toby can debut together Valley ;) Sounds good... just like Kyzer and Toby agility debuted togther :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Hey guys - I have a question! To cut a long story short, I kind of bet my club president that anyone at our club could train heel position without a collar/leash (this stemmed from a conversation about whether or not people should be promoted to the higher levels if the dogs were still wearing head collars). So she is giving me her class to instruct on Monday and to win the bet, I have to have at least half of the dogs in class finding heel position if the owner takes a step to the side and calls them to heel. It's all just for fun and the real point of the bet is to have the class spend a lesson on working getting a good stationery heel position - something not all the members in our trialling class do well. I would love some ideas on what to cover for training heel position? I have a few ideas but would love some suggestions. I would like to do some backend awareness exercises, has anyone found any that work well in a class situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Hey guys - I have a question! To cut a long story short, I kind of bet my club president that anyone at our club could train heel position without a collar/leash (this stemmed from a conversation about whether or not people should be promoted to the higher levels if the dogs were still wearing head collars). So she is giving me her class to instruct on Monday and to win the bet, I have to have at least half of the dogs in class finding heel position if the owner takes a step to the side and calls them to heel. It's all just for fun and the real point of the bet is to have the class spend a lesson on working getting a good stationery heel position - something not all the members in our trialling class do well. I would love some ideas on what to cover for training heel position? I have a few ideas but would love some suggestions. I would like to do some backend awareness exercises, has anyone found any that work well in a class situation? Do you only have an hour to do this? I would be using the tear drop method. Most dogs pick that up pretty quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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