ness Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) Yep I would agree with what SnT said. She isn't really keen on the patting I would just be giving her a treat . Lots of dogs don't like the physical contact - I know one of mine considers it slightly adversive. The other one thrives on it. Edited February 11, 2011 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue & Waldo Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 One thing I have done in the past is wedge the DB between my knees so that gives me a free hand. Both of mine are at a height were I can do that and they can still reach it comfortably.Are you using a wooden or a plastic DB (sorry I did just watch the clip but can't remember). Some dogs are much happier with one type over the other and I know I had to use a wooden DB with my reluctant retriever. She could then later use a plastic DB but had a huge reward history of using the wooden one. I have tried both wodden and plastic one-no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue & Waldo Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I am trying really hard but I can't keep my mouth shut. You marked it (reinforcing) and you rewarded it (ultra reinforcing) stop smooshing her upside the head!!!!!! You can see she doesn't actually like it that much because her body language changes. You jolly well know Cindy is a smooch! BTW I had to wait ages for her not to be scared of the camera and for daughter to stop laughing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Boy did I just get a big surprise - I thought Cindy was a golden retriever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I am trying really hard but I can't keep my mouth shut. You marked it (reinforcing) and you rewarded it (ultra reinforcing) stop smooshing her upside the head!!!!!! You can see she doesn't actually like it that much because her body language changes. You jolly well know Cindy is a smooch! BTW I had to wait ages for her not to be scared of the camera and for daughter to stop laughing Well yeah she is, but I'm serious when I say it's working against you by demotivating her while she's training, you are interrupting the shaping to reach out to pat her and three things happen: 1. She steps back away from you anticipating the head pat. 2. Her tail goes from up and wagging to lower with slower wagging and during the second head pat the tail stops moving. 3. Her ear position changes. They are relaxed and forward most of the time and when she is receiving food from you but it changes when you reach out. I could probably see more if put the video on slow mo. Shaping is hard work for a previously classically conditioned dog, I say give her chance without it, she doesn't need it she's already been reinforced. I put out a personal challenge for you to stop and see what happens b/c I think it's more for your benefit than hers. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I thought Cindy was a Goldy too You need to put a heap more energy into it Sue. Make the object interesting by putting it behind you or hiding it and producing it quickly. You sort of want the dog looking for the object. I think it is that energy that builds a frustration so they actually put it in their mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Not sure what others think but i would put the dumbell on the ground and leave it there. I wouldn't keep moving it around and i'd continue to free shape from there. I don't think there is enough value on the dumbell as yet and i think getting her moving (over to the dumbell) would aid in this. Then you can click and throw the food away from the dumbell, to set her up for another repetition. I think this creates a much more independent dumbell retrieve too- you won't have to fade out other body cues from you but it will take longer initially. I think you need a much harder, faster nose touch before you think about her putting her mouth around it. I wouldn't touch her either- one of my dogs is the same- although she may tolerate it at other times, there is no way she would accept it while we're shaping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Just read through some of the other suggestions re: taking dumbell away and representing. For those who do it this way, what advantages did you find using this method? Does anyone have videos of it being done really well that i could have a look at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I wouldn't be putting the dumbell on the ground until the dog is taking it from my hand. Putting it on the ground is missing a few steps out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Even if you're free shaping JP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Cosmolo have a read of this - http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html Not sure if you are familiar with this method? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Thanks for the link- i had read the method ages ago but just had another read as i had it in my head that what i do and the SC retrieve was similar. I teach it in almost exactly the same way- particularly as far as the criteria steps go- BUT i start with the dumbell on the ground. I must admit, i haven't trained that many dogs to do it that way so perhaps i would run into problems with some, although i haven't as yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Cosmolo do you want a video - I can do one tomorrow as I should really be working through a similar issue with the metal article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I'd love to see one ness, thank you I will see if i can get a video of the way i have done it too, maybe i'll give it a try with the JRT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) look forward to seeing it - in the meantime I found this one that I did when Kenz was maybe 5 or 6 months old. Not the best video I should have used treats that didn't require her to crunch quite as much but it kinda shows how its done. I would probably not have left her so long in the decision making process between presenting and letting her make the decision to take it. Edited February 11, 2011 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I've done the method with a very reluctant dog Cosmolo and I don't think she would ever have picked it off the ground. In fact i did run into issues when I did put the dumbell on the ground. Lucky she understands English and after listening to me say "please pick it up for Mummy" (said with hands in face), the little dear did pick it up. I was about to have hysterics at that stage, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffy Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I have been using Shirley Chong's dumbell training with Cindy for the last 2 weeks.She will not mouth it at all! I am not c/t any contact unless it is the mouth. If I hold off the c/t and wit for her to take it she starts offering other behaviours-sit, drop, stand and then just gets confused. Any ideas greatly appreciated. Have you done all the initial steps??? Yes-to the letter. She just rarely mouths any toys apart from tugs. She noses kongs etc. Can you video your next session? Well finally I have a video. Any help would be greatly appreciated. She is targetting the dumbell with her nose but not taking it. I now only reward when she touches the bar. As other people have said, your timing is an issue :D I would just forget the dumbell for now and just go and shape her doing something very simple...it will help your timing and help her confidence. Can you shape her sitting in a cardboard box??? I have told this many a time to trialling people...just go and shape a trick....learn the mechanics of shaping and you'll find teaching the "tricks" in obedience very easy I'm not sure that all agree with that, but I do :p Everyone just seems in a hurry to teach Obedience exercises but if you work on the basics, then the harder stuff just flows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue & Waldo Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I am trying really hard but I can't keep my mouth shut. :D You marked it (reinforcing) and you rewarded it (ultra reinforcing) stop smooshing her upside the head!!!!!! You can see she doesn't actually like it that much because her body language changes. :p :D :p ;) You jolly well know Cindy is a smooch! BTW I had to wait ages for her not to be scared of the camera and for daughter to stop laughing Well yeah she is, but I'm serious when I say it's working against you by demotivating her while she's training, you are interrupting the shaping to reach out to pat her and three things happen: 1. She steps back away from you anticipating the head pat. 2. Her tail goes from up and wagging to lower with slower wagging and during the second head pat the tail stops moving. 3. Her ear position changes. They are relaxed and forward most of the time and when she is receiving food from you but it changes when you reach out. I could probably see more if put the video on slow mo. Shaping is hard work for a previously classically conditioned dog, I say give her chance without it, she doesn't need it she's already been reinforced. I put out a personal challenge for you to stop and see what happens b/c I think it's more for your benefit than hers. ;) Yeah yeah I know-but you do know what a nuff nuff she has for a handler. (At least I can breathe during trials these days) I promise to accept the challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue & Waldo Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Boy did I just get a big surprise - I thought Cindy was a golden retriever :D My son has 2 goldens-does that count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue & Waldo Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I thought Cindy was a Goldy too You need to put a heap more energy into it Sue. Make the object interesting by putting it behind you or hiding it and producing it quickly. You sort of want the dog looking for the object. I think it is that energy that builds a frustration so they actually put it in their mouth. Mmm good thought-Cindy does lack drive and I will try this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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