Training Talk Thread

[Tiggy]

I've always been told to teach them together and that the dog will pick up the verbal before the signal, so then you start phasing the verbal out.

I think they pick up the hand signal much easier than the verbal hence the reason to teach the verbal first .

[whiskedaway]

I've always been told to teach them together and that the dog will pick up the verbal before the signal, so then you start phasing the verbal out.

I think they pick up the hand signal much easier than the verbal hence the reason to teach the verbal first .

Maybe my dog is a weirdo then.

Typical Sibe, has to do things backwards.

[Tassie]

Speaking of allowing others to handle your dogs.....last night I took Emily to puppy school - mainly as an opportunity to practice focus under distraction and see how she responded in an unfamiliar situation. Imagine my surprise when they not only wanted to have a puppy free-for-all "socialisation" but wanted to play "pass the puppy" I politely declined and did my own thing.

Another here who's not a fan of "pass the puppy" in a puppy class full of unknowns . A couple of other people who take my puppy class when I'm away at a trial or something, will do it, but to me it goes against my idea that the foundation of training is the relationship between handler and dog. (Of course, I will in the right setting, hand the puppy off to trusted and savvy friends, so that they do get used to being handled by someone else - but not in a random puppy class.)

[wuffles]

We played pass the puppy in puppy school and I am happy to give my dogs to instructors to do demonstrations. I've had no issues and she's still bonded with me. But I'm just a beginner who wants a pet first and a competition dog after that if we both enjoy it.

[Tassie]

Just depends how you want to do it, IMO there isn't a right and wrong way. My hand signal comes first if I am teaching using luring as the hand signal is usually a less obvious version of the lure. Verbal command is only added when they are performing the behaviour every time with the lure. Both my dogs work better using signals rather than commands, so although I give both most of the time, the signals are most important for us.

Keep in mind it can be difficult for instructors who often have to fit within the club or vet's training philosophy, if you think you have enough experience to effectively train your dog in a different manner then take their advice and try their method, but ultimately you can do whatever you like.

My dog will work for praise but she will work BETTER for treats

I tend to encourage my puppy class people to get the behaviour (and establish a version of the hand signal) first, and then put a verbal on it. It's mostly because if they do use the verbal, they will very often use a cue repeatedly, without getting an appropriate response, and this can be confusing for the pup.

I love it when I'm teaching them to get from their pup a behaviour that they don't 'know' the cue for - they're always amazed that their smart puppy can figure it out. It's so funny to hear nothing until they give their marker/bridge word. It also helps to teach the handlers to be patient, and to really think about the components of the behaviour.

[The Spotted Devil]

Speaking of allowing others to handle your dogs.....last night I took Emily to puppy school - mainly as an opportunity to practice focus under distraction and see how she responded in an unfamiliar situation. Imagine my surprise when they not only wanted to have a puppy free-for-all "socialisation" but wanted to play "pass the puppy" I politely declined and did my own thing.

Another here who's not a fan of "pass the puppy" in a puppy class full of unknowns . A couple of other people who take my puppy class when I'm away at a trial or something, will do it, but to me it goes against my idea that the foundation of training is the relationship between handler and dog. (Of course, I will in the right setting, hand the puppy off to trusted and savvy friends, so that they do get used to being handled by someone else - but not in a random puppy class.)

I thought that went out with the Dark Ages, Tassie! I ended up chatting with a long time breeder of Working GRs at the session and I asked her to restrain Em gently so I could practice a recall - after meeting her I trusted she knew what she was doing!

wuffles - my concern is that there is a lot of non dog savvy people in the average puppy class (not to mention a lot of kids!) - easy for a puppy to be dropped, frightened, corrected inappropriately in the blink of an eye. Observing how other owners handled their own puppies made my mind up. Miss E. was quite overwhelmed initially so a free-for-all socialisation session was the last thing she needed. So I didn't think the instructors wanting to stuff her face full of food when she just wanted to observe quietly was going to help at all! I picked her up as I was fed up and the looks of derision I received were priceless My role is to know my dog and to protect her. In fact, by the end of the session she was making 'play bows' at the bouncy (and gorgeous ) Vizla puppy next to us so we let them meet on lead - much more positive experience for her.

[Tassie]

...

I thought that went out with the Dark Ages, Tassie! I ended up chatting with a long time breeder of Working GRs at the session and I asked her to restrain Em gently so I could practice a recall - after meeting her I trusted she knew what she was doing!

...

Nah - it's in a Puppy Kinder manual put out by a woman who was speaking at the APDT conference lasst year, I think. (But that's designed for a small group - about 6 - indoors. Even then, I probably wouldn't do it with my own, unless I trusted the people really well.)

wuffles - my concern is that there is a lot of non dog savvy people in the average puppy class (not to mention a lot of kids!) - easy for a puppy to be dropped, frightened, corrected inappropriately in the blink of an eye. Observing how other owners handled their own puppies made my mind up.

Miss E. was quite overwhelmed initially so a free-for-all socialisation session was the last thing she needed. So I didn't think the instructors wanting to stuff her face full of food when she just wanted to observe quietly was going to help at all! I picked her up as I was fed up and the looks of derision I received were priceless My role is to know my dog and to protect her. In fact, by the end of the session she was making 'play bows' at the bouncy (and gorgeous ) Vizla puppy next to us so we let them meet on lead - much more positive experience for her.

Had a somewhat cautious puppy with a very nervous handler at class the other day - with only a couple of other pups - so I was able to have the nervous handler just stay a 'safe' distance from the others while her pup watched the others have a bit of on lead play (no fences) and then we all did some 'work'. By the end of the lesson, the 'nervous' pup was enjoying interacting with each of the other pups in turn - having a great time, and with her handler considerably happier and more relaxed - win all round. Was really grateful to the other handlers who did exactly what I asked, and who were really thrilled to see the change in the newcomer, and thrilled with the nice manners of their own pups.

[wuffles]

wuffles - my concern is that there is a lot of non dog savvy people in the average puppy class (not to mention a lot of kids!) - easy for a puppy to be dropped, frightened, corrected inappropriately in the blink of an eye. Observing how other owners handled their own puppies made my mind up. Miss E. was quite overwhelmed initially so a free-for-all socialisation session was the last thing she needed. So I didn't think the instructors wanting to stuff her face full of food when she just wanted to observe quietly was going to help at all! I picked her up as I was fed up and the looks of derision I received were priceless My role is to know my dog and to protect her. In fact, by the end of the session she was making 'play bows' at the bouncy (and gorgeous ) Vizla puppy next to us so we let them meet on lead - much more positive experience for her.

Yes my girl has always been very confident with other dogs and people so I guess that forms part of my opinion. None of the people in my class were rough or inappropriate either. By the time we did 'pass the puppy' most of the puppies were too big to be picked up anyway so it was more about having other people walk them on leash, get them to sit and drop, and try to get them to sit still for pats. Either way I guess it depends on a lot of factors and I can see why some people are uncomfortable with it. I just don't know if I agree with everyone's reasoning

[JulesP]

Unless things have changed dramatically I am not sure I would call that Puppy's school off lead session a free for all. Pups are usually let off one at a time to check how the pups get on. Any timid pups are removed to another group. Play is very carefully monitored. Pass the puppy is usually done whilst sitting down.

[The Spotted Devil]

Unless things have changed dramatically I am not sure I would call that Puppy's school off lead session a free for all. Pups are usually let off one at a time to check how the pups get on. Any timid pups are removed to another group. Play is very carefully monitored. Pass the puppy is usually done whilst sitting down.

Fair enough JulesP - just not my experience or, perhaps, my perception. Personally I still don't like the idea of pass the puppy (and yes everyone was sitting down).

ETA: I don't have a problem with socialising puppies but I also think it should be done once the pups have had a chance to absorb their new surroundings, rather than first thing. At the end of the day, puppy class is probably just not for me.

Edited November 4, 2010 by The Spotted Devil

[JulesP]

Unless things have changed dramatically I am not sure I would call that Puppy's school off lead session a free for all. Pups are usually let off one at a time to check how the pups get on. Any timid pups are removed to another group. Play is very carefully monitored. Pass the puppy is usually done whilst sitting down.

Fair enough JulesP - just not my experience or, perhaps, my perception. Personally I still don't like the idea of pass the puppy (and yes everyone was sitting down).

ETA: I don't have a problem with socialising puppies but I also think it should be done once the pups have had a chance to absorb their new surroundings, rather than first thing. At the end of the day, puppy class is probably just not for me.

I saw you btw and the little cute puppy

[The Spotted Devil]

She's a doll - why did you not introduce yourself???

ETA (again!): I suppose at the end of the day I feel VERY responsible for the experiences my pup/dog/kitten/cat has - in the past I have let things go that make me feel uncomfortable (in terms of handling or allowing other dogs to monster Zig) and I am now determined not to let something happen that I'm not happy about it. Otherwise I have no one to blame but myself for not having the guts to speak up.

Edited November 4, 2010 by The Spotted Devil

[JulesP]

I was outside doing trial practice with Amber.

[Tiggy]

I've never taken my pups to puppy school and they've all turned out fine .

[The Spotted Devil]

I was outside doing trial practice with Amber.

Damn - wish I'd known!!!

[JulesP]

She's a doll - why did you not introduce yourself???

ETA (again!): I suppose at the end of the day I feel VERY responsible for the experiences my pup/dog/kitten/cat has - in the past I have let things go that make me feel uncomfortable (in terms of handling or allowing other dogs to monster Zig) and I am now determined not to let something happen that I'm not happy about it. Otherwise I have no one to blame but myself for not having the guts to speak up.

Nothing at all wrong with not going things you don't agree with. I didn't do the food manners bit last time as Amber was being very funny with food.

[huski]

I took Kyojin to his first puppy class last night. I was a bit surprised that we, well not quite got in trouble, but were told that we were doing the wrong thing as we have already taught Kyojin to sit and leave it on command, and are working on shake at the moment (He paws a lot, so we figured we'd make use of it) because we verbally say the commands to him. Apparently we should only be using hand signals until he's 120% amazing at it and can do it from miles away, or when we have our backs to him etc. I've never heard of this. Every dog I've had we've taught them to do something while saying the command when they do it right, and then praising. So far, so good. I also got told off because we very rarely give him treat rewards at home. Supposedly having a dog that is happy to work for praise isn't such a good thing Are we doing the wrong thing???

I like my dogs to be able to work on voice and hand signal. Remember at the end of the day, it's still just the instructors opinion, and what you want from your dog can differ from what they would want for theirs.

Puppy schools aren't really my thing either. Though I know some puppy school instructors who will try and make you terrified that if you don't go to puppy school your puppy will turn into an unsocialised fearful or aggressive monsters.

[JulesP]

Question about hand out to the side heeling I played with this today and got much straight dogs, they tend to wrap around my leg. Do you get the dog to target your hand or do you use a treat in your hand, which you fade?

[beagie]

Question about hand out to the side heeling I played with this today and got much straight dogs, they tend to wrap around my leg. Do you get the dog to target your hand or do you use a treat in your hand, which you fade?

I have my hands behind my back, the right hand full of food transfer one piece at a time to the left hand, feed from the back of the head to stretch the head

up, if your dog is wrapping then you are bringing your hands to far across your body hence the dog is following. Theory is if the dog is wrapping it is not

good for the spine, if the head is straight up it is in a straight line with the spine therefore not causing so many problems with the spine. However there are a lot

more experts than me with doubtless other ideas Beagie.

[Seita]

just got home from a training session and am pleased that Ella was able to find her seekback despite the ground being nearly completely covered in water! I now know that if I ever have to trial in puddles she should be able to find her article! She has so far had to work in ankle deep mud, gale force winds, torrential rain and on grounds that smelt overpoweringly like fertilizer (to me, I can only imagine how strong it was for her!)!!!