Training Talk Thread

[RubyStar]

Hmmm RubyStar - finding running the course rewarding on its own isn't a good idea - that would be like having your obedience dog find the DB more rewarding then what you might have to offer. Can get you into hot water pretty quickly.

I'm ok with it at the moment. I'd rather them enjoying it than hating it

[RallyValley]

Ness- Toby will shut down when he feels uncomfortable, this includes at trials where he does what I ask but loses all his motivation and becomes a velcro dog, constantly checking in and unwilling to work independantly. My indicator of when he is uncomfortable is that he won't tug, he loves to tug at home and has started to tug at training but I know if he won't tug he has lost confidence and is on the way to shutting down. I guess I don't really know how to explain what I am trying to teach him but I want to see if I can get him to work as confidently at training and trials as he does at home.

In the mean time I am happy to use food rewards but if he is really uncomfortable he won't want those either. Plus it is harder to make a game out of food and gauge how he is feeling because he will take it even if he isn't so sure of whats going on. I would use iSqueaks but people complain about the noise at class

Edited May 26, 2010 by valleyCBR

[ness]

ValleyCBR I know what your saying - Kenz is a bit that way but has always been happy to take a tug reward for agility and certainly doesn't shut down when running. I will say its easier on the dog to take food when they are stressed then it is for them to tug when they are stressed. Kenz is a bit unsure of strangers and spooks easily and when that happens she is much more likely to be able to accept food then she is to reengage with a tug toy.

But in environments she is comfortable with (and Kenz's triggers are pretty specific) she will routinely refuse food if there is a game on offer hence I am working with the toy. If Toby had his choice of reward in an environment he is comfortable with would it be food or toy??

Edited May 26, 2010 by ness

[RallyValley]

It depends on the food and the toy. At home I don't use food to train, only toys. So the only time he has to choose is at training where I have high value food and he will usually choose food.

[The Spotted Devil]

CBR - did you catch my previous post? I mix 'em up - tug when he's really excited and food when he's probably a little tired or a little anxious. Don't give them a choice - but don't set them up to fail either, if that makes sense

ETA: You know your dog is going to refuse the tug at a trial, so don't offer it. The first place I had success with tugging outside was our club training grounds. I was so excited I nearly over did it but learned to stop early in the middle of the game. Then I made it a habit every time I was at the grounds but never brought it out to a trial. When I did bring it out at a trial I didn't try to get Zig to play with it, just jiggled it and ignored him. When he leapt on it with excitement I just slowly built on that all over again. Weekend gone is the first time I've used the tug just before we went in the ring and even then it wasn't the very last thing we did. And I've been trying to get a decent tug for about 18 months!

Edited May 26, 2010 by The Spotted Devil

[ness]

Would be interested to see what his response was at home. I have never tried to really train my older one with toys because well its pretty obvious that she would prefer food to toys. She will play with toys but really prefers food.

I was trying to get a gauge on whether Toby prefered toys over food. Kenz gets toy rewards and I am working her through the 2 or 3 in 10 times she wouldn't take a toy because she is stressed because I know her perference is clearly a toy in environments where she is comfortable. Although interestingly at her first agility trial I opted to feed her before we went into the ring and we tugged after. But once she was on the startline she didn't get stressy. She was coping prior to going in but not enough to get a tug game out of her. It however didn't impact on her speed around the course so I am not to worried.

Guess its about using what will work for a dog in a particular context.

[RallyValley]

CBR - did you catch my previous post? I mix 'em up - tug when he's really excited and food when he's probably a little tired or a little anxious. Don't give them a choice - but don't set them up to fail either, if that makes sense

Yeah I did. It's given me some stuff to think through.

[Tiggy]

I think it's worth the effort getting agility dogs to be toy/tug motivated. I find in my limited agility experience that alot of the time it's better to use a toy for things like throwing it ahead of the dog and while the dog is tugging you can move them around to where you want to set them up next. I'm lucky that Banjo is toy and food motivated and loves to tug.

[ness]

Tiggy you can have a huge uphill battle getting a nervous dog to tug in an environment they aren't happy with and you have a much better chance of getting the same dog to take food. There are ways around not using a toy. You can throw bait bags, use bait plates, even build value for things like hand targeting and ask the dog to do that instead of tugging to get them set up for the next sequence. You can even throw food and SG on her 2x2 dvd actually starts the method throwing food rather than a toy.

I have also seen handlers who get so hung up on the agility dog must tug that they have managed to totally shut off the dog from enjoying the sport. Not saying ValleyCBR is like but as the saying goes there is always more than one way to skin a cat. My older one has her masters titles and has never seen a toy for training. I am sure she isn't the only one around who has been trained using food only.

In the end you have to make work what the dog finds rewarding .

Edited May 26, 2010 by ness

[Kavik]

Kaos is another that is happy to tug at home but won't tug when out (walks, training or trials). He will now tug in the front yard as well as back yard. Soon I am going to try to get him to tug outside the front gate. We may or may not be successful

He does like to chase and retrieve a thrown toy, especially this one squeaky toy (which doesn't squeak that much any more ) and I use this toy at training and trials as his reward. I would like him to tug, but not sure if we will get there in the end or not.

[The Spotted Devil]

Hey Kavik - have you tried having a squeaker inside the tug toy? That's what I want to try next - I reckon Ziggy will go a little nuts

[RallyValley]

I have his isqueak for throwing ahead but the benefit of tug is that I can take a reward into the ring. If I can't train tug outside the house that's fine but I would love to give it a decent try.

[bedazzledx2]

All the time

Hello Easier to demo than explain but I'll give it a go. LAT, left foot straight...right foot makes a T across left foot...left foot swivels round and right foot leads out followed by left.

Oh bedazzled..were are you???????

Ptolomy just looked on Fanny's blog for something else and noticed that she has video on there doing the 2x2 weaves method.

Did any of you practice your footwork without the dog for awhile with turns?

[Tiggy]

Tiggy you can have a huge uphill battle getting a nervous dog to tug in an environment they aren't happy with and you have a much better chance of getting the same dog to take food. There are ways around not using a toy. You can throw bait bags, use bait plates, even build value for things like hand targeting and ask the dog to do that instead of tugging to get them set up for the next sequence. You can even throw food and SG on her 2x2 dvd actually starts the method throwing food rather than a toy.

I have also seen handlers who get so hung up on the agility dog must tug that they have managed to totally shut off the dog from enjoying the sport. Not saying ValleyCBR is like but as the saying goes there is always more than one way to skin a cat. My older one has her masters titles and has never seen a toy for training. I am sure she isn't the only one around who has been trained using food only.

In the end you have to make work what the dog finds rewarding .

Ok fair enough

[Kavik]

Hey Kavik - have you tried having a squeaker inside the tug toy? That's what I want to try next - I reckon Ziggy will go a little nuts

Yep have tried that. Have had a little success with a sheepy skin type toy I won at an ADAA trial which squeaks but still not reliable or for very long.

I have also tried putting his favourite toy in a sock but he won't tug on it. His favourite tug toy is a sheepy tug from Clean Run but at home he will tug on braided fleece tugs as well - actually just did a little bit with him then

I'm not overly fussed if I can't get it to work, but it would be nice to have another way to reward, and I could reward straight away at a trial which is difficult if you have to throw the toy. (at the moment I reward immediately with food and then we run to a quiet spot and I throw his toy.)

[Mas1981]

Valley Mason wont play with his toys in class when there are other dogs around , he will occassionally but he much prefers food, he will work for that whenever and wherever

[Seita]

Hello Easier to demo than explain but I'll give it a go. LAT, left foot straight...right foot makes a T across left foot...left foot swivels round and right foot leads out followed by left.

Oh bedazzled..were are you???????

Ptolomy just looked on Fanny's blog for something else and noticed that she has video on there doing the 2x2 weaves method.

Thanks. That looks the same as the behind the back method?

Footwork is pretty much the same for you on both types of turns, it's mostly what the dog does that is different. To teach a nice clean left U turn your dog will need to have some back end awareness as it will have to swing it's bum around beside your leg as you do the turn. I don't know if this makes much sense?

I haven't decided whether I will do COP or DB for Novice yet. Kenz can do both and her DB retrieves are pretty close to perfect anyway. I always thought I'd do the COP but not so sure anymore she just really really loves her DB .

I did both, I can't remember how many of each I did but I remember doing DB at least once for novice! I had both trained nicely before entering novice and then decided on the day based on what she was doing best in training during the week!

[TerraNik]

Hmm... Maybe I'll do the DB if we have to compete in novice after we've got our title (entering too many trials)... That'd be fun!

[RubyStar]

OK dummy question time! Hope someone can help!

I sent off for Ruby's CD Title Application on Monday, and received her certificate in the mail today (awesome speedy service by Dogswest I have to say! ) I didn't opt to have her updated certificate of registration sent to me (as it means sending in her original and extra costs), as my understanding was formerly applying for the title means she officially has the title now. But now something in me is telling me that to officially have the title, I need to get her certificate of registration updated and swapped over. Do I or don't I? Reason I am now thinking I haven't done it properly is because her title certificate doesn't have CCD written next to it, from when I last sent off for her CCD (nor CD from this time). I thought updating the registration paper was just for show and your own records, but on their records it has changed. Is this not the case? Hope someone can explain it to me!

Edited May 26, 2010 by RubyStar

[bedazzledx2]

Don't sweat it RubyStar! If the only title you anticipate getting is CD then it would be worth updating your cert of registration. I know you are aiming higher (g) so leave it as is. Brooklyn's is as naked as the day he was registered!!! No titles on it at all as I am always aiming for another one so don't see the point. His titles are registered with the ANKC through Dogs West so they are valid and you will find when you apply for the next one, all the previous titles will be on the title certificate.

OK dummy question time! Hope someone can help!

I sent off for Ruby's CD Title Application on Monday, and received her certificate in the mail today (awesome speedy service by Dogswest I have to say! ) I didn't opt to have her updated certificate of registration sent to me (as it means sending in her original and extra costs), as my understanding was formerly applying for the title means she officially has the title now. But now something in me is telling me that to officially have the title, I need to get her certificate of registration updated and swapped over. Do I or don't I? Reason I am now thinking I haven't done it properly is because her title certificate doesn't have CCD written next to it, from when I last sent off for her CCD (nor CD from this time). I thought updating the registration paper was just for show and your own records, but on their records it has changed. Is this not the case? Hope someone can explain it to me!