Training Talk Thread

[Ptolomy]

Might even take the metal articles to training tonight to see how she goes with distractions around. Not expecting much though as she's never worked them on grass before.

Big brag!

I took the full set of metal articles to training tonight.

Daisy only started learning SD on Thursday, and we only started working with more than one or two of the metal articles on Monday. We haven't trained anywhere other than the living room floor, and tonight I had the articles down on the grass with loads of smells, other dogs, noise, people etc around. She was totally on the ball and brought back the right one every time And we must have done it at least a dozen times throughout the night. AND we did it 'properly' a few times with Daisy and I turning around, someone else putting the scented article down, and then turning around and giving her the command.

I am so proud of her she has really picked it up quickly

Now to train wood and leather Does everyone train them separately? Should my next step be training wood on its own, then leather on its own, and then mixing them up? Should I start scenting different metal articles instead of using the same one each time?

Huski's got a new party trick great to hear.

After training the metals - I put them away and bring out the woods and train those exactly the same way. After the dog is working with the 5 woods - I then mix the woods with the metals and finally I put them all away and bring out the leathers and train those on their own before mixing them with the woods and metals. At this point I am still using my heavily scented article.

[Ptolomy]

My question of the day is when does close, prancy heeling become crowding??? Has anyone been pinged for crowding?

Very interesting question - especially with the push in NSW to bring English style heeling in.

I noticed on some of the crufts videos I watched this year that the dog is actually leaning on the handlers leg - it looks like if the handler took their leg away the dog might fall over.

[huski]

I move on to woods among woods and leathers among leather and then mix it up. You should find she gets it pretty quickly after having done the metals! Other people do it differently so its something that you have to work out what suits you and your dog. If she starts having problems go back to the step at which she was successful. I would still keep the fronts and finishes separate at this early stage.

Huski's got a new party trick great to hear.

After training the metals - I put them away and bring out the woods and train those exactly the same way. After the dog is working with the 5 woods - I then mix the woods with the metals and finally I put them all away and bring out the leathers and train those on their own before mixing them with the woods and metals. At this point I am still using my heavily scented article.

Thanks guys!

Will give wood a go now.

And yes Ptolomy it is a good party trick LOL!

[ness]

I have temporarily broken Kenz's new party trick . Teach me to push it to hard. Last session she decided she would just bring me back woods . Hmmm ok so I have one dog with a wood fettish and the other dog with a leather fettish . Thats ok I think part of her issue is still related to where her brain is wired when we are training. I tried it after agility and I think she was still to toy focused to think clearly enough.

Interesting my metal pick ups have also seriously deteriorated inside the last 12 hours as well. I have also seriously screwed my retrieves because she keeps wanting to drop the articles at the same point - and its the point that I was clicking her during one session. Any ideas on fixing this gurus??

ETA. Interesting on the pushing bit. Kenz use to push and dictate badly. Not sure what has changed but she is now still drivey but more into a proper position and less drivey against my leg. All I have been concentrating on is having her set up at heel or pivotting on the spot and holding heel and we haven't been doing a lot of heelwork at all.

Edited March 31, 2010 by ness

[Mas1981]

My question of the day is when does close, prancy heeling become crowding??? Has anyone been pinged for crowding?

Very interesting question - especially with the push in NSW to bring English style heeling in.

I noticed on some of the crufts videos I watched this year that the dog is actually leaning on the handlers leg - it looks like if the handler took their leg away the dog might fall over.

Starting to train with G tomorrow morning Ptolomy

[ness]

I have to say I actually like the UK Style heelwork.

In answer to huski's question - I have actually stopped using heavily scented articles with Kenz. I will just take an article and scent it as I would for Ness but also we are still doing a bit of toss and fetch before a session so I guess that also helps scent the article.

I do know one thing both my two are going to start on some serious distraction training and I am going to put off avoiding what I should have started a long time ago. Starting with Ness's scent work - well starting with her article pick ups actually . Shamed into feeling guilty about not having done enough and will get started tonight.

Edited April 1, 2010 by ness

[Ptolomy]

In answer to huski's question - I have actually stopped using heavily scented articles with Kenz. I will just take an article and scent it as I would for Ness but also we are still doing a bit of toss and fetch before a session so I guess that also helps scent the article.

Is this why Kenzie's scent has gone pearshaped - getting rid of the heavily scented article a bit too soon or changing too many criteria at the one time?

[ness]

Nope Ptolomy it was honestly a case of lumping and clouded judgement call . Tue night I used one of Ness's trial sets with her as that is all I had taken with me to club. These sets are pretty methodically aired and had not been used since goodness knows when. I used the same scented metal that I used with Ness and Kenz was much more settled before we played. I thought since we had no issue on Tue night I'd take a set out to agility training on Wed evening.

Just to set the record straight - we have a small agility club so there are actually more dogs and distractions with classes in progress on a Tue night then on a Wed night.

However few things - Kenz had run her agility runs so was very hyped up. 3 runs isn't really enough to take the edge off a BC baby and she was pretty high on adrenalin. Secondly I had grabbed one of my training sets to take along. My suspicision is that I haven't been exceedingly careful with the woods and quite probably they had a higher level of residual scent on them and I also worked Ness first. Although Ness had no issues with my articles but I still question whether the woods might not have been slightly contaminated.

I guess I fell into the trap of taking it for granted because she has picked it up quickly. She actually has never used a heavily scented article.

So think it was a case of to greater expectation. I think I am finding she needs to be in the right frame of mind to complete the exercise at the moment. If she is to fired up the brain isn't working and she loses the plot. Like when I quickly discovered at the park the other night that there was no way she could function in that circumstance but I shouldn't be surprised it took me a while for her to control herself enough to offer heelwork at the park with the ball available.

Note to self don't place unrealistic expectations on baby dog just because you think she has the idea. Better to go slowly and make sure of it before pushing the boundaries and not throwing her off the deep end. My frame of mind probably didn't help the situation either as by that point I was feeling a bit sorry for myself as well.

Edited April 1, 2010 by ness

[The Spotted Devil]

Question for you all in terms of the UK style of heeling - I agree it looks lovely but is it a practical ask for ALL breeds? To my eye it seems beautifully suited to breeds that have a flexible body (not sure how else to describe it) such as Borders, Goldens etc - but for a Doberman? A Great Dane? A Chi?

[ness]

Why not a Doberman? Maybe not the excessive head position but they can still look just as attentive. Great Dane doesn't have as far to look . I guess it depends how strict you are talking the UK style. To me the things like I like about the UK heelwork and my main criteria in training are the prancing totally devotated attentive heel position. I am not so concerned as to exactly how close to the leg the dog is working (which I realize is part of the "UK Style") but I see far to many dogs in the ring here sticky beaking while in heel position and to me that doesn't cut the mustard. I am not a stickler for a strict head position as they would be in the UK but looking up at the handler, obviously engaged and prancing along at heel are what I think makes for a nice heel pattern.

To take the comment I got from a judge in training the other night with my youngster - she works better then 90% of the dogs currrently trialling in novice and yet I am still not happy enough to enter her for a number of reasons but the major factor for me is while she is technically heeling I occasionally get head checks to see what is happening and she stops kicking her front feet up. Yep I am fussy but I want a dog who prances around the ring and who doesn't look away.

[ness]

Ok so here is a pre-Easter question for you all - I have just given you what I feel makes for my desired heeling performance - what criteria do other people feel they use to assess whether there dog is heeling to their desired standard. What final product are other people aiming to aspire to? What criteria do you have set in concrete and which are you prepared to be more flexible over with a particular dog.

[The Spotted Devil]

I agree, ness - nothing wrong with attention and it's certainly something I strive for - happy, attentive, focussed heeling. I don't tolerate lapses in concentration but it has been a lot harder to train a Dalmatian to a high level with my current level of experience than it was to train my first ACD with no experience, no toys, no food and absolutely no idea. Fortunately I've had a lot of fun in the process I'm not flexible with criteria - have just realised it takes a hell of a lot longer to train some things than others and that I have to pick my times, days, temperature, humidity etc when I train. Where he has to do repetitive work, it can require a lot of creative training. Where he has to think outside the square - he is a breeze. I've spent 3 years just working out what makes him tick!!!!!

But I think there IS more than to the UK style of 'wrap' heeling than simply attention

[pie]

I don't think it's possible for a dog below knee height to lean into you while heeling, surely they would trip you over when you took a step?

Happy to see videos to disprove my theory though!

[Tassie]

Good insights there ness!

On the UK style heeling - Mary Ray was explaining that they are deducted points if the judge can see daylight between the dog and the handler's leg (so she said, she wears trousers with a wider rather than narrow leg ). To me, unless the dog had pinpoint judgement and accuracy of holding the position, that would get you pinged for crowding here. So I'm aiming for close but not touching - but like ness, I like the head round (but not as exaggerated as some of the UK ones, and trotting (well, maybe not in slow pace without a lot of work.)

Hastens to point out there are huge differences between my aims and my current achievements.

[huski]

I don't know much about the different styles of heeling but the things I look for and (try to) train in my dog are: total focus, drive - I like to see some desperation, I like her to be as close to my leg as possible (within the rules) and quick, snappy responses to commands.

I don't find heelwork where the dog looks like its just going through the motions or is looking straight ahead or doesn't have that 'oomph' (for lack of a better word) particularly appealing.

[huski]

Hastens to point out there are huge differences between my aims and my current achievements.

me too!

Or at least getting what I aim for consistently

[ness]

Interesting about the lapses in concentration - I think I am more talking about the head position being slightly wrapped as per Tassie's comment. I have seen dogs doing heelwork and hold position but who seem to be looking everywhere and anywhere.

Kenz does crowd onto my leg a bit and I don't mind it. I raised the topic of head position with Rivsky the other day as I was commenting on one of her videos and saying I had a similar problem. Dog was in a nice heel position but the head wasn't where I wanted it.

Edited April 1, 2010 by ness

[Seita]

On the topic of heeling, I don't care if my dog doesn't prance, all I want is her right beside me looking at me. I don't care for the UK/schutzhund style of heeling where the dog leans on you and has it's head wrapped around your leg (the bigger the dog the easier it is to see this) as this is definitely crowing and it's a pain the butt to walk in a straight line with a dog doing this! :D

I'm really fussy about body position beside me, I want shoulders in line with my left leg at all times with her touching my leg (having a coated dog helps here!), any further ahead and judges up here will dock you big time and I also don't want a dog behind me either as that can lead to lagging. I do tolerate brief glances away during heeling but I preffer that my dog looks at me continually but I also know that I don't train enough on this to get it all the time.

[huski]

I do tolerate brief glances away during heeling but I preffer that my dog looks at me continually but I also know that I don't train enough on this to get it all the time.

:D Ella's heel work is fantastic Nic! I don't think I've ever seen her look away from you!

[JulesP]

Poppy wraps around my leg. She doesn't actually touch me but she isn't straight in her body. Her shoulders might be slightly in front of my leg though. Little Amber is already moving in this bent fashion as she wants to see my face.

I don't like it when the gait is effected. Not a fan of the high front legs unless that it the way the dog naturally moves.

Might have to get her a bit further back and off me I guess.