Training Talk Thread

[huski]

You haven't created monsters, they're gorgeous I really admire NSDTR but think they might be a tad too smart for me

I sent out an SOS to the guru a couple of days ago - saying things were going pearshaped in training - and I needed a lesson (it always happens just before I go away )

Anyway to cut a long story short - the guru suggested next time choosing a breed that wasn't so smart, or if I must stick with this breed to choose the dumb one in the litter - as smartness brings problems all of their own Great now she tells me :p

Come on Ptolomy, next time mix it up and get a Beagle... I guarantee it will be different to the Tollers

Edited March 26, 2010 by huski

[Ptolomy]

Um Huski - there was a time before I got into tollers that I came very close to getting a beagle

[ness]

Um sorry Ptolomy - can't see you as a beagle women .

[huski]

And then you came to your senses??

ETA: Ness just what does a beagle woman look like??

Edited March 26, 2010 by huski

[ness]

hmmm not sure huski but I can't see Ptolomy with anything other than a toller (except for Lara ).

[TerraNik]

And then you came to your senses?? :p

ETA: Ness just what does a beagle woman look like??

I learned my lesson!!! No more beagles for me!

[Mas1981]

MM - I taught Ness scent discrimination based on the dog scout website and Ptolomy's kindly well thought out emails. Let me see if I can find any of my trial videos that might give you an idea of what the exercise should look like when its finished.

Hmm here is an old clip of mine from a trial -

this one has a bit of what it shouldn't look like because Ness spits the article but it shows you how its set up and you can clearly see the steward/judge/dog/handler in the video -

Thanks for the video it helped a lot! Would love to have a go at doing this. I noticed something that your dog does, when he/she bring the article back and gives it to you, he/she then goes into heel position but sits so that he/she faces you slightly?? Mason has been doing this at times and I have been correcting him by making him face forward ONLY, is this wrong, do a lot of dogs do this??

Katie I probably wont make it down this monday night but I would love to watch Ruby do scent work. Would love to see if Mason would do some work at the K9 as that are where a lot of trials are held and I havent taken him there as yet.

[ness]

Oh my finishes are a constant WIP - just ask Ptolomy :p . I didn't say that was a perfect example - Ptolomy or Bedazzledx2 probably have perfect ones on video just that it sort of showed the exercise.

Edited March 26, 2010 by ness

[Mas1981]

Oh my finishes are a constant WIP - just ask Ptolomy :p . I didn't say that was a perfect example - Ptolomy or Bedazzledx2 probably have perfect ones on video just that it sort of showed the exercise.

Dont get me wrong I am not finding fault etc I think that it was a great video, I am only asking as my boy does the same thing and I am wondering what you did or how you train them to not do it as its something Mason does very very often, I dont want to not click and treat as he is going to heel position but just not the heel position i would like and i dont want to praise him etc as its not 100% correct, its little things like this that I need help with

[ness]

With Ness I am a bit past trying to sort it out. Too much water under the bridge. I will reward ones in the correct position but in the end I am not sure I can change to much now and expect miracles. Kenz has never been rewarded for a shitty finish. I will step away, set her up again and ask for a new finish and only reward ones when she is 100% correct.

And yep its double standards but Ness will be 10 this year and is bordering on retirement, Kenz isn't yet 2 and has a long career ahead of her . But none the less I do still work on Ness's finishes occasionally and have a few new ideas to try so will have a go with those and see if it helps any.

Edited March 26, 2010 by ness

[Mas1981]

With Ness I am a bit past trying to sort it out. Too much water under the bridge. I will reward ones in the correct position but in the end I am not sure I can change to much now and expect miracles. Kenz has never been rewarded for a shitty finish. I will step away, set her up again and ask for a new finish and only reward ones when she is 100% correct.

And yep its double standards but Ness will be 10 this year and is bordering on retirement, Kenz isn't yet 2 and has a long career ahead of her . But none the less I do still work on Ness's finishes occasionally and have a few new ideas to try so will have a go with those and see if it helps any.

Let me know if any of your ideas work. I tend to just say too bad try again and I dont reward Mason because he is 11 months only so I could fix it I guess, and now and then when I ask for heel position he sits in a way I am not happy with but I do feel bad not rewarding him as in his mind he is going to that position etc but this week I have been strict on him and I do see a little improvement.

[ness]

I tend to go back and lure a few with kenz if she gets them wrong or sits to far around and make sure I am rewarding down along my leg and slightly behind.

[Seita]

Hey on the topic of scent discrimination. Those who have trained the dog scout method (or any other method I guess) do you use food to help scent the articles or not? And if you do how quickly do you phase it out? I used a lot of food to scent both my hands and the articles and created a dog who picked each article up to "test" if it was the right one. I don't think I phased the food out fast enough and it's taken AGES to move past this picking up problem. I think we've pretty much gotten over it now but it's taken sooo long! I'm just curious really!

[ness]

Not sure Seita - I have played a combination of dog scout and find the article in the long grass. Kenz not being foodie doesn't seem to care about the food scent or not. But Kenz also isn't testing each article. Even though she has only been playing a couple of days - she is happy to sniff all the articles but only make an effort to grab the correct one. I am not sure if is because she has been reluctant to fetch metal so its slowed her down enough for her to be thinking rather than just grabbing. But when presented with a possible snatch option i.e.a wood in the pile she still was happy to sniff. Will see what happens when I reintroduce the woods.

I guess when it comes down to it when I am training with Ness if I have been rewarding various exercises my articles will always have a slight food scent. Its not often that my hands will be totally food scent free. I know she can do them without though because I can prepare her tea and place that in a bowl and reward when we are done. I don't think I really made a huge deal about the food/no food. I know her articles were food scent baited for a while because she was having huge issues and not understanding but I don't actually remember making a conscious decision to remove the food scent. I know a few times she has been struggling I have gone back to using extra smelly treats to reward and while not deliberately baiting the articles with food obviously if I have rewarded a seekback with nice smelling treats then there will still be traces of food scent on my hands when we get to doing articles.

Not sure that really answers your question though does it.

Just on the picking up - I am not sure thats related to the food thing. I know I had a bit of snatching and grabbing because she wasn't sure and I don't believe that was due to the food. Kenz did it today once when I introduced woods to the pile as well. Went out grabbed the first article she came across but then proceeded to scent the rest of the articles with an article in her mouth until she got to the correct one.

Edited March 26, 2010 by ness

[Seita]

nah it's not a snatch and grab problem it was a pick up each article and taste it and then put it down and move on to the next one problem. She never really did a snatch sort of thing. She just didn't learn quick enough that the exercise was to sniff each article and bring the right one back, she thought for some time that the object was to taste and test each article to find the right one! Like I said she's past it now and does them properly, I was just curious if anyone else has ever encountered this problem or what they would do to avoid it... I would like to know so that when the time comes to train another dog I won't make the same mistake again!!

[bedazzledx2]

Hi Seita, No I never use food on the articles or heavily on my hands either. In the early stages of teaching I tend to use the same scented article in a few sessions but it only has my scent on it. I overdid it with my BC many years ago and had a few issues caused by overusing heavily scented articles so once they understand the game I then use a new article per session. I also use the Dog Scouts method but I don't click until the dog has made their choice and is coming to me at which point I don't care if they drop the article in order to get the treat. You can always delay the click in order to get a great present with the article.

Hey on the topic of scent discrimination. Those who have trained the dog scout method (or any other method I guess) do you use food to help scent the articles or not? And if you do how quickly do you phase it out? I used a lot of food to scent both my hands and the articles and created a dog who picked each article up to "test" if it was the right one. I don't think I phased the food out fast enough and it's taken AGES to move past this picking up problem. I think we've pretty much gotten over it now but it's taken sooo long! I'm just curious really!

[Tiggy]

Are the knurled metals better than the flat ones? I thought maybe they're easier for the dog to pick up and what's a seek back article? Thanks .

[RubyStar]

Are the knurled metals better than the flat ones? I thought maybe they're easier for the dog to pick up and what's a seek back article? Thanks :D .

I have some metals that are knurled and some that are not. I have been training on the "slippery" ones but really should get my other set out and give them a go and see if they can pick them up easier. I actually have 2 full sets, and an extra set of metals as I was training scent for the first time when I bought the second set and thought the extra set of metals would help with training so I could rotate! Had them for over a year now and they have never been used I air my other ones out though obviously. I think the real test for my girls is if I get the brand new set out and see if they are still as successful.

Seekback article is like a rolled leather article, but not sure if you can use something else as the article or not. It gets dropped on your heeling path behind you and then your dog has to go back and find it by scent (or sight!)

[ness]

I have 6 sets of knurled and 1 set of plain - never used my plain ones. Neither kid likes them so will just stick with the knurled ones .

[ness]

Just in the process of uploading a Kenzie scent session from about 10 minutes ago. I think she well and truely has the game. Pretty chuffed with her - not bad for a dog who use to decide that picking up metal was all too difficult and would resort to barking at me in frustration. Still got work to do on her picks up before I will be happy but she is a long way out of the ring at any level never mind trialling in UD.

What I was also impressed about was when I bought her back after having a session with Ness she didn't then go stupid on me but continued the game. She remained focused even with a car driving past. Little things which a seasoned dog wouldn't get distracted by but its pretty easy for a baby dog to be distracted by even the smallest things when they are learning.

I have been using the same metal article but it has been stored with all the others in the box. I made no deliberate attempt to food scent the articles either. I am still setting it up so that the first attempt is still more or less a retrieve. Mostly as she is still reluctant with her metal pick ups.

She had no issue when I selected a new wood out of my box to scent and send her for it the first time though.

If anybody else has started and its taking a while don't get frustrated I remember nearly tearing my hair out when I first taught Ness with countless emails to Ptolomy saying she doesn't get it, not sure she ever will. But guess what the penny did eventually drop .

I do chuckle at the difference though. Ness use to always try and work her article piles at a million miles an hour - still does (hmm might get around to uploading her couple of attempts from today later). Kenz is much more methodical and careful.