Purebred Pups Bloodlines

[WreckitWhippet]

Genuine question Sandra, should pet people walk away or avoid you , when you choose to do a tighter mating ?

The average not-a-lot-of-knowledge pet buyer should because how are they to know who's OK and who's not?

IMO someone who comes on here or goes to the "trouble" of getting advice from some other reputable source is not the same as the person who looks in the pet shop, looks in the trading post and buys the same day.

Ellz - I agree completely. Buying a puppy from someone who breeds well regardless of the puppy's COI is always better than buying from a BYB - but I ask again, how is the uneducated puppy buyer meant to know the difference?

I have no issues with close matings done by good breeders.

It's a catch 22 Sandra, telling then to walk away, yet the people who choose to do the close matings, are more likely they one's who have put the care and consideration and planning into the mating.

If we tell the average puppy buyer to look for pedigrees that appear not to have closely related dogs, we are effectively pointing them in the direction of the breeders who are happy to slap anything together.

What the puppy buyer needs to ask is " why have you chosen this mating " " what kind of guarantee do you give me, regarding this puppy " " What support will I recieve from you in the future"

[MsBex]

Legitimate question please.

Do wild dogs ie. wolves/dingos generally inbreed like this? Father/daughter, sister/brother? Not talking the odd occasion, but generally speaking? It seems terrible to me, but am aware I may be putting an anthropomorphic spin on things.

Is it natural is my question?

[OSoSwift]

My bitch is a very close breeding and I have had no problems what so ever.

Had a bitch that was no where near as close and died from hereditary disease.

I don't think a close breeding is a major issue as long as the parents are health tested and good, sound of mind and body specimens.

[Sandra777]

What the puppy buyer needs to ask is " why have you chosen this mating " " what kind of guarantee do you give me, regarding this puppy " " What support will I recieve from you in the future"

What the puppy buyer needs is education - for example your questions of why did you do this mating, guarantees etc but.....hands up those who asked these questions when (if they ever have) buying their first PET and hands up those who know people who have bought a PET without knowing the ins and outs of the breed they are buying let alone what questions they should be asking of the "breeders", even though they have been told how to choose a breeder?

People are great at taking advice when it suits them

[LOLAFOLATA]

Legitimate question please.

Do wild dogs ie. wolves/dingos generally inbreed like this? Father/daughter, sister/brother? Not talking the odd occasion, but generally speaking? It seems terrible to me, but am aware I may be putting an anthropomorphic spin on things.

Is it natural is my question?

Excellent question MsBex. This has been running through my mind also

Thanks

Edited February 17, 2010 by LOLAFOLATA

[ellz]

Ellz - I agree completely. Buying a puppy from someone who breeds well regardless of the puppy's COI is always better than buying from a BYB - but I ask again, how is the uneducated puppy buyer meant to know the difference?

I have no issues with close matings done by good breeders.

Unfortunately the average puppy person will buy first and ask questions later. THEY must take responsibility for that. If somebody truly WANTS to know and actually does care about the origins of their dog, they will ask the proper questions BEFORE handing over their money.

Otherwise, they're just another Joe Q with money burning a hole in his pocket who will no doubt end up purchasing a puppy from yet another FORMER Joe Q who had money burning a hole in HIS pocket.

I spent over 2 hours on the phone yesterday to a woman who contacted me about puppies. Unfortunately, she was about 2 weeks too late because I would have bent over backwards to let her have one of mine had I had one available.

She WAS a Joe Q who jumped at the first cute puppy she saw that was advertised locally, without papers, for $300. That puppy (coincidentally has blue breeding) is now known as her "million dollar dog" thanks to the amount of money she has spent on him at the vets for all manner of problems ranging from separation anxiety and temperament issues and digestive disorders through to (surprise surprise) hair loss problems and itching. He was desexed at the age of 7 months. She would desex all future animals as well but having researched things a bit more, wouldn't do it as young. She succumbed again to another puppy (different "breeder") after a little more research and ended up with a more healthy dog BUT she passed away unexpectedly at a very young age from an undetermined cause that the vet said was possibly associated with dehydration after consuming a gut full of salt water on a seaside holiday. A friend of hers who purchased a littermate to her deceased bitch has recently had a litter and offered her a puppy from the litter, but she declined because...in her words "she doesn't want to encourage indiscriminate breeding any more".

Since then, the woman has spent many many hours following links to websites, checking out the DOL classifieds and making phone calls. She has decided that she has learned her lesson now and her next dog will come from a breeder in whom she can place her trust. She doesn't care about the pedigree, she just wants a HEALTHY dog and knows now that she can get that, with health guarantees from a good breeder and she is prepared to make as many phone calls or write as many emails and even travel to meet as many breeders as she can until she has found the RIGHT one.

I take my hat off to potential purchasers like this. Everybody is entitled to make a mistake, and I daresay that most of us established breeders/exhibitors have made MORE than our fair share (if we are brave and honest enough to admit them!) of mistakes until we "settled on", "found" or "lucked into" what we feel is our most successful line, dog or whatever.

The SMART people are the ones who learn from their mistakes and they are the ones who DESERVE the best that we, as breeders can give them.

That won't stop me from trying to educate people, but sometimes you just KNOW you're beating your head against that proverbial brick wall and oh BOY does it feel good when you finally stop!

[Jed]

Legitimate question please.

Do wild dogs ie. wolves/dingos generally inbreed like this? Father/daughter, sister/brother? Not talking the odd occasion, but generally speaking? It seems terrible to me, but am aware I may be putting an anthropomorphic spin on things.

Is it natural is my question?

Not sure about wolves - I would suppose the dominant male wolf would sire pups to his daughters.

In horses, the dominant stallion keeps the mares in the herd, drives off the colts, and the herd composes his daughters and granddaughters, which he sires foals to.

Happens in a lot of wild animal populations.

As far as the dog goes - I would want to see the dogs, and know why the mating was done. With good dogs, it is often done, to continue a concentration of the blood, and you are not introducing new and unknown nasties.

Linebreeding and outbreeding are two of the tools in a breeders tool chest. There is no right or wrong - what is important is that both these tools be used wisely and well. Most of our better breeders do use them wisely and well, to improve their breeds.

[Sandra777]

That won't stop me from trying to educate people, but sometimes you just KNOW you're beating your head against that proverbial brick wall and oh BOY does it feel good when you finally stop!

Oh yeah, you get the phone call 6 months later and they have a problem with their 4 month old puppy, which they had to buy because they just couldn't wait any more, and the breeder was no help at all when they phoned.

"You were such a lot of help when we were looking" ------ so you went and bought that BYB puppy why????????

[poodlefan]

Legitimate question please.

Do wild dogs ie. wolves/dingos generally inbreed like this? Father/daughter, sister/brother? Not talking the odd occasion, but generally speaking? It seems terrible to me, but am aware I may be putting an anthropomorphic spin on things.

Is it natural is my question?

Not sure about wolves - I would suppose the dominant male wolf would sire pups to his daughters.

I'm pretty sure there's only one mating pair in a wolf pack - the alpha male and the bitch he picks as his mate.

In African Painted or Hunting Dogs, the bitches leave the pack at maturity and find another pack without sexually mature females.

Neither of those means that the breeding animals might not be closely related.

[Diva]

I'm pretty sure there's only one mating pair in a wolf pack - the alpha male and the bitch he picks as his mate.

In African Painted or Hunting Dogs, the bitches leave the pack at maturity and find another pack without sexually mature females.

Neither of those means that the breeding animals might not be closely related.

And I'm pretty sure wild stallions don't usually mate their daughters either. I recall reading a few articles on the effect of familarity/paternity on breeding choices in wild horses a few years ago to this effect.

[LOLAFOLATA]

I would also like to add that, some years ago i owned a purebred cocker spaniel which I obtained through paper FTGH. He came with all his paperwork. I noticed even then, heavy inbreeding. He had some obvious conformation faults, even I could see. We loved him, but he was an absolute nutcase - I mean nutcase!!!! . Maybe my subcontscious memories of him have prompted the original question.

forgive spelling

Edited February 17, 2010 by LOLAFOLATA

[poodlefan]

I think the answer to this question is easier than you think LOLAFOLATA

If the closeness of the mating makes you uncomfortable, look elsewhere.

[ellz]

I would also like to add that, some years ago i owned a purebred cocker spaniel which I obtained through paper FTGH. He came with all his paperwork. I noticed even then, heavy inbreeding. He had some obvious conformation faults, even I could see. We loved him, but he was an absolute nutcase - I mean nutcase!!!! . Maybe my subcontscious memories of him have prompted the original question.

forgive spelling

Well, at the risk of offending Cocker owners, the "average" Cocker isn't the most sensible nor sane dog on 4 legs anyway. I've owned a few but always go back to the American Cocker which are only marginally better!

[ellz]

That won't stop me from trying to educate people, but sometimes you just KNOW you're beating your head against that proverbial brick wall and oh BOY does it feel good when you finally stop!

Oh yeah, you get the phone call 6 months later and they have a problem with their 4 month old puppy, which they had to buy because they just couldn't wait any more, and the breeder was no help at all when they phoned.

"You were such a lot of help when we were looking" ------ so you went and bought that BYB puppy why????????

Ahhh yes, and especially when they decided not to purchase a puppy from you in the first place because they were too expensive!

[Kustali]

I haven't read all the replies, but great choice of breed/s!

We have a Mastiff sub forum and like another said there is a Dane forum too

There are a few breeders in Mastiffs doing things really close, for me i am on the fence, yes you keep the type you want but i have also noticed some problems too. I wont be going so close for this reason!

We have the problem of a limited gene pool with the Mastiffs in Australia and type varies. Importing is quite a fete, which some are doing and that is great. For me i've imported two dogs with some of the same lines behind...then i'll need something new, i'll be looking for something maybe with similar lines or i may just go with the type i like to keep things diverse, we'll see.

If you're not interested in breeding i wouldn't be to concerned, as long as the parents are the type you like, are healthy, and the breeder is a reputable one then all should be fine. If you were breeding you would want to look into things a bit further.

If you need any advice on the Mastiffs pm me

Hannah.

[LOLAFOLATA]

I haven't read all the replies, but great choice of breed/s!

We have a Mastiff sub forum and like another said there is a Dane forum too

There are a few breeders in Mastiffs doing things really close, for me i am on the fence, yes you keep the type you want but i have also noticed some problems too. I wont be going so close for this reason!

We have the problem of a limited gene pool with the Mastiffs in Australia and type varies. Importing is quite a fete, which some are doing and that is great. For me i've imported two dogs with some of the same lines behind...then i'll need something new, i'll be looking for something maybe with similar lines or i may just go with the type i like to keep things diverse, we'll see.

If you're not interested in breeding i wouldn't be to concerned, as long as the parents are the type you like, are healthy, and the breeder is a reputable one then all should be fine. If you were breeding you would want to look into things a bit further.

If you need any advice on the Mastiffs pm me

Hannah.

Thanks Hannah will be in touch. Have drifted into both forums but will become much more active to get all the good oil.

[Kustali]

Glad you're taking the time to do your research...great to see

[MsBex]

I would also like to add that, some years ago i owned a purebred cocker spaniel which I obtained through paper FTGH. He came with all his paperwork. I noticed even then, heavy inbreeding. He had some obvious conformation faults, even I could see. We loved him, but he was an absolute nutcase - I mean nutcase!!!! . Maybe my subcontscious memories of him have prompted the original question.

forgive spelling

Well, at the risk of offending Cocker owners, the "average" Cocker isn't the most sensible nor sane dog on 4 legs anyway.

Not Cory anyway But I'm still pinning hopes he'll grow out of it!!

Thanks for the replys to my question earlier guys.

[SpikesPuppy]

I was thinking about this today and wondering do harlequin Danes have the lethal gene that merles do?? Ie: is it genetically safe or not to breed Harle to harle?

I know with collies in particular merle to merle should be avoided, or only ever done for one generation and not the next (keeping in mind that a lethal white is NOT the same as a white). A member of this forum had the unfortunate offspring of a merle to merle AND brother/sister mating - aside from other health issues, the pups were born with defective or non-existent eyes. Of course, these pups were irresponsibly bred (backyarder I believe), but IMO you really need to understand what is behind your puppy and why the mating was so close/what the motivation was.

I prefer line-breeding (cousins, grandparent/grandchild, aunt/nephew (which I did)) personally. Complete outcrosses bother me as much as tight inbreedings though, especially if all you ever do is outcross (ie: I would do a complete outcross then breed that offspring back to a closer relative).

[Jed]

I'm pretty sure there's only one mating pair in a wolf pack - the alpha male and the bitch he picks as his mate.

In African Painted or Hunting Dogs, the bitches leave the pack at maturity and find another pack without sexually mature females.

Neither of those means that the breeding animals might not be closely related.

And I'm pretty sure wild stallions don't usually mate their daughters either. I recall reading a few articles on the effect of familarity/paternity on breeding choices in wild horses a few years ago to this effect.

Yep, they do. the ones I've seen and heard about. Stallion chases the colts out of the herd, retains the fillies. They will breed around 18 months, so he sires foals to them - the cycle continues until one of the colts beats him up and takes over the herd, or he dies. Still happens on huge properties with a brumby population. In the territory, they would shoot the brumby stallion, and replace with a stockhorse for better horses, or genetic diversity. I've seen a few brumby herds, and it was pretty obvious that most of the young and middle aged horses were by the same sire, particularly if he was 10+.

Weren't they worried about the Lake Michigan wolves, who were on an island, because of inbreedng, but have now discovered it isn't a problem. I posted it somewhere here a while ago.

Dogs aren't wolves - I would hope that breeders doing line breeding were selective with matings. It's not the matings it's the quality of the dogs which is important.

I think that any pet buyer who is worried about something like this should go elsewhere for peace of mind.