Purebred Pups Bloodlines

[LOLAFOLATA]

I was looking through pups available on DOL for my chosen breed. I was particularly interested in one litter and looked into their pedigree more closely. I was surprised to see that dam & sire were both from the same bitch and their sires brothers. I only wish to purchase a pup as a pet and know nothing of line breeding however, I was concerned that this seems too close. Please set me straight on this subject.

Edited February 16, 2010 by LOLAFOLATA

[whippets]

Yes that is a pretty close breeding. What breed is it? Do they offer a health guarantee?

Edited February 16, 2010 by whippets

[WreckitWhippet]

If it's producing quality, sound dogs and bitches, then I wouldn't be worried about it at all.

[SpikesPuppy]

Unless the pup and bloodlines were spectacular, that is too close for me personally. BUT are the brothers full brothers or half-brothers?

Edited February 16, 2010 by SpikesPuppy

[ellz]

If they are of a breed where clearances from genetic defects can be done via DNA and all of the dogs have been given clearances, then technically speaking, a breeding that close is a good thing as far as inherited disorders are concerned. And provided the dogs are also temperamentally sound, physically sound and have been raised properly and the puppies are likewise, then I wouldn't be at all concerned about the pedigree.

Inbreeding is not something that should necessarily strike fear into the hearts of anybody. Inbreeding with sound, sane, healthy animals is usually safer than continually outcrossing and introducing new traits into the genepool. You cannot produce something that isn't in the bloodlines already whilst outcrossing CAN introduce undesirable traits that can lay dormant for some generations.

[Nekhbet]

depends on the breed too

have seen close bred LGD and it was just too much. Also close bred Mals, GSDs etc turn out nut cases in some instances. Too much concentration

frankly I wouldnt be touching it unless there was an astronomically spectacular reason it was done.

[Miranda]

I have nothing against close breedings, but a lot depends on the breeder and their knowledge of the lines. My foundation bitch was the result of a father/daughter mating and went on to be an excellent producer. As long as the breeder is experienced and consistently produces healthy dogs of good quality I wouldn't be concerned.

[Sandra777]

Some of the most important and influential breeding animals have come from very close matings so no there is nothing inherently wrong with the practice but you need to be experienced and ethical to consider such a mating as there are many things to be considered such as health and temperament along with conformation which is less obvious to the average pet buyer.

If you aren't experienced enough to know whether it's a good or bad idea in general I wouldn't expect you to be experienced enough be able to judge whether or not this specific mating is a good idea or not - so my advice would be to look elsewhere. Perhaps it is a great mating, perhaps it is the pinnacle of this particular breeder's 50 year plan, but for the average pet buyer how would you know this?

[Christina]

Too close for me.

While inbreeding/linebreeding can produce great pups & DNA/genetic testing can rule out the hereditary problems.

There is no genetic test for temperament.

While both parents may be terrific natured the only way to test the pups is to let them be born & then see.

Madness in the aristocracy/royalty was why incest was made taboo.

Before people got really scientific they figured that one out.

For specific breeding to someone who is aware of all involved it could be fine but for a pet puppy I would choose more variety say no closer than grandparent/ grandchild mating. That's just IMO, may not bother others.

[LOLAFOLATA]

Yes that is a pretty close breeding. What breed is it? Do they offer a health guarantee?

I have been looking mostly at giant breeds - danes & mastiffs. Only just started my research and this was the first litter that I actually looked into pedigree.

Unless the pup and bloodlines were spectacular, that is too close for me personally. BUT are the brothers full brothers or half-brothers?

Sires were full brothers.

Thanks for all the feedback. I am only just starting my research and a pup may be a little while away just yet. I was just curious as, even though I'm only looking for a family pet, I would still like to ensure that I make the right choice for a healthy, sound pup.

[Danois]

Possibly know the breeding you are referring to.

If you are interested in danes then please come into the dane thread and ask questions as it is a pretty active thread and there is a great knowledge there re which breeders to stay away from and what sort of things to look for in a litter. The first post in the thread has a great summary.

[BJean]

depends on the breed too

have seen close bred LGD and it was just too much. Also close bred Mals, GSDs etc turn out nut cases in some instances. Too much concentration

frankly I wouldnt be touching it unless there was an astronomically spectacular reason it was done.

Bcz you know Im going to ask :rolleyes:

Which breed Nekhbet?

Why was the close breeding too much?

[Nekhbet]

full brother sister mating, very rare breed I'll PM you. Dogs temperament was just way too much

[Nekhbet]

I have a giant breed. I wouldnt touch another closely mated dog with a 10 foot pole. The last one I rescued and rehomed died of a heart attack, and I know of health problems in others due to close matings.

Check the lines on each side of the dog, see if problems have arisen and let that be the deciding factor. But not having problems doesnt mean that now concentrating the genetics will stay problem free.

For a pet I would go with something not too closely bred, good hip/elbow/whatever else is in the breed scores and raised well.

[WreckitWhippet]

I don't get the logic behind saying that pet people should stear clear of close matings. A quality pet is a quality pet, regardless of how close the mating is.

I'd be more concerned about the "breeder" with the two unrelated dogs sitting in their back yard or all of the colour to colour matings that occur within every breed, where there are colour variations.

How tight a mating is, should not be a sole reason for a potential buyer to walk away.

[Sandra777]

I don't get the logic behind saying that pet people should stear clear of close matings. A quality pet is a quality pet, regardless of how close the mating is.

I'd be more concerned about the "breeder" with the two unrelated dogs sitting in their back yard or all of the colour to colour matings that occur within every breed, where there are colour variations.

How tight a mating is, should not be a sole reason for a potential buyer to walk away.

No not the sole reason, but IMO the average novice pet owner has enough problems figuring out if the breeder is moderately good or not without having the added problem of figuring out if the breeder is that extra bit good enough to do such a close mating. If they get guidance from others then great, but the average person looking for a pet without a lot of assistance? Wouldn't recommend it myself

[WreckitWhippet]

Genuine question Sandra, should pet people walk away or avoid you , when you choose to do a tighter mating ?

[ellz]

I may be the odd one out, but I'd far rather purchase a puppy from health-tested parents that is closely inbred from a registered breeder , than purchase one that is "who knows what" from a backyard breeder.

And I daresay that there are MANY happy, healthy family pets already out there who are incredibly closely bred but that the owners wouldn't know because most of the time, they never even bother to look at, let alone research a pedigree.

JMHO

[Sandra777]

Genuine question Sandra, should pet people walk away or avoid you , when you choose to do a tighter mating ?

The average not-a-lot-of-knowledge pet buyer should because how are they to know who's OK and who's not?

IMO someone who comes on here or goes to the "trouble" of getting advice from some other reputable source is not the same as the person who looks in the pet shop, looks in the trading post and buys the same day.

Ellz - I agree completely. Buying a puppy from someone who breeds well regardless of the puppy's COI is always better than buying from a BYB - but I ask again, how is the uneducated puppy buyer meant to know the difference?

I have no issues with close matings done by good breeders.

[SoL]

I don't see a reason to steer clear as long as the lines are tested clear of known inherited faults. Regardless of pet or show pup there are things that should and can be tested for and you should always ask to see original clearance certificates. Some of teh nicest dogs and bitches I know come from very close and/or inbred matings, one of which was father/daughter. You need to satisfy yourself that the breeder is registered, ethical and knows the lines they have played with. Why don't you ask them why they have done such a close mating? It will be interesting to hear their answer and will probably be the test of whether you look further at this litter or walk away. It's good that you're taking an interest - many pet owners couldn't give a damn about what is behind the dog and the reasons for any particular mating a breeder may have.