Dogs And Bones.. Your Thoughts?

[bc_girl]

Actually I can get him away from it with his leash, but that doesn't really solve my problem as he will still growl the next time. The only other thing he 'resource guards' is ME - if another dog tries to get my attention, he will growl at them, but my trainer said he was being protective and to correct him for doing that. He honestly does not give a rats about toys, boring food, his bed etc.

Cosmolo - The second visit was after I contacted the trainer to say the original strategies suggested weren't working - which was when they suggested just leaving him alone

[Cosmolo]

In which case, i think another trainer would be a good option.

When you get your next trainer, just let them know what was tried previously so they can advise whether their solution would be different. I have had a number of clients start the initial contact with an enquiry that pretty much asks if we can do anything different to the last trainer- its hard to say what exactly we'd do without seeing a dog BUT there are some instances where we can be pretty certain we'd be doing different things to what has been previously tried.

Feel free to send me an email/ have a look on our website and we can see if we can help.

[Christina]

Not acceptable at all.

Can't believe that last week 1 of my dogs, she is 5, growled at my adult son when he tried to take her bone.

He has never tried before but she does not growl at me ever.

I stood there & told him to take the bone. She growled. I said NO. Leave it & made him take the bone.

He did & we told her good girl. We did it 6 more times with him saying NO. Leave it the last 4.

She was fine after that & I told him to do it again the next day. She knows he is boss too now but he is not scared of her he was just a bit shocked.

However you do it this must be stopped. You are the boss.

[4Kelpies]

This is my favourite method of dealing with resource guarding. http://k9deb.com/foodguar.htm

I've seen it work with a number of dogs with owners who had a range of experience. I wish I'd known about it when my puppy growled at me all those years ago, instead of doing all the wrong things that I did, only increasing his fear that I was out to steal his food and teaching him not to trust me. It took me years to get his confidence back after my reprimanding him and removing his food by force because I thought I had to punish him for growling.

[Aidan]

I believe the problem has worsened of late as I have followed the advice of the trainer and tried to reassert the pack hierarchy.

Observations of wolves in the wild suggest that submissive wolves can and do guard bones against more dominant animals, including the alpha (Mech, L. David. 1999. Alpha status, dominance, and division of labor in wolf packs. Canadian Journal of Zoology 77:1196-1203) -- so if we are to accept the premise that you have a pack hierarchy problem, it wouldn't necessarily follow that solving this might solve the resource guarding issue.

We did not just leave him to eat as a puppy, we did try to practise removing his food and he was fine. The problem is only with bones and as I got him as a 16yo, I never thought of the possible consequences of this possessiveness and stupidly did not practice doing the same with bones. Also, before anyone asks, he goes to obedience training, did puppy preschool, is socialized etc, we sincerely tried to do all the right things with him.

I think if you can go through all the steps outlined in the article I linked to earlier, instead of swapping a "chew treat" you could attempt a swap for a bone instead. Just don't force the issue and if you have any doubts, seek professional help.

[Red Fox]

Hi all

It is my dog that Bundys_mum is talking about. The problem is not so much the cost of getting out another trainer, but the fact that I can't afford to get out another trainer and NOT solve the problem. If I have no luck in making some progress myself in the next week or so I will definitely seek further professional help, but being that I am a student and just forked out an entire week's wage to get a trainer out not just once but twice, to solve the problem to no avail, I'm not keen to do the same again right away. I believe the problem has worsened of late as I have followed the advice of the trainer and tried to reassert the pack hierarchy.

I have been working on the triangle of temptation, which he does perfectly. He won't actually take the bone without me saying so, but once he has it I cannot approach him without a growl. Fortunately we don't have any young children around, but that is exactly why I am trying to solve this problem, I 100% agree with Bundys_mum that is is not acceptable.

We did not just leave him to eat as a puppy, we did try to practise removing his food and he was fine. The problem is only with bones and as I got him as a 16yo, I never thought of the possible consequences of this possessiveness and stupidly did not practice doing the same with bones. Also, before anyone asks, he goes to obedience training, did puppy preschool, is socialized etc, we sincerely tried to do all the right things with him.

Hi bc_girl, there are plenty of excellent trainers on this forum that are in Vic; Cosmolo, Erny and Nekhbet are a few that spring to mind Perhaps you could try contacting one of them? If it were me I'd spend some time speaking to a few trainers about their methods, find one that I felt comfortable with and go from there.

Does your dog have an 'out' or 'give' command? TOT will help too but you will need to give it time.

With my dog I spent a lot of time just being near him when he ate his bones (or had anything else of high value). Starting off by just being over the other side of the yard ignoring him and gradually working it up (very slowly) so that I could walk closer and closer to him and eventually touch him without him worrying that I was a threat or was going to take his 'treasure'.

Now if I walk up to him and say "what have you got there?" he will wag his tail and proudly display his bone for me without any fear that I will take it from him He also knows 'out' and 'leave it' which help in the rare case that I do need to take something away.

I dont make a habit of pestering him when he has his food though and I dont see the point of constantly taking the dogs food away. IMO that is only going to make the dog worry more each time you approach him. And with all that said my dog has never really had a problem with resource guarding so speaking to a professional (not BB!) is best.

Good luck

[persephone]

I start any of ours off with "gimme" for a toy ,as we play They get praise or a treat for giving it to me, or letting me take it. They also get it straight back!

heaps of repetitions of this, usually leads to the dogs racing up to me with bones/dead things/stolen items........usually

I also teach YUCKY! which means spit it out NOW,and leave it there. ! Very useful ,tho not 1000% reliable- for nasty /dangerous things they may grab.

bc_girl- welcome, and I hope we can help you and your dog to a better understanding

[rubiton]

Dog growls she backed away - hello does anyone watch its me or the dog or Caesar?? Simple solution - dont give the dog any bones they can live without them yes it avoids the problem but in the short term avoid the dog realising it can get away with 'resource guarding'.

Later on get a decent trainer as there are other more simple less confronting ways of teaching the dog its not the boss and it can never growl at the boss EVER.

Our dog dug up an old discoloured crumbly bone from soemwhere and tried to gulp down a big chunk - I didn't quite know what it was but I hadnt goven it to her so didn't want it swallowed. Note when you stick you hand in a dogs mouth and grab a chunk of bone and it tries to chew said bone it does actually hurt. I got the bone learnt that dogs molars hurt when you stick your finger in there and made sure dog got something she could have instgead of the bone which was gotten rid of. Only reason I got chewed was she was desperately trying to get it down her throat and was finishing that movement when I shoved the hand in she let go of the bone at that stage. But then I have also grabbed her food bowl after giving it to her after forgetting to add something - in that case bowl and dog came back inside and she watched me add whatever it was and then she got it back with extra.

[sas]

I can take food off my dogs, I do recall when Dante was a teenager he growled at me when I went to move his pigs ears away, he got 'what for' for that behaviour and hasn't done it since.

I think a lot of young dogs try it on and if they get away with it they continue with it as it works for them.

[raineth]

Hi

I am going to suggest a possible course of action. I think before attempting to pick up the bone, it would be better to do a prelimenary training in which you get him to be happy for you to be close to him when he has a bone.

give him a bone.

walk away a distance then slowly walk towards him - look for the spot at which he tenses up (maybe stops shewing becomes still, that sort of thing) then take a reasonable step back from that.

At that point throw an incredibly high value treat; aim close to his mouth. even better use a clicker or bridge word before you do it (if he knows what they are).

Do this a lot. Ever so slowly get closer. But always be behind the point where he has a problem with you.

Make him think that you being close when he has a bone is a really good thing!

These methods take a long time, and their success lies in going slowly.

[B-Q]

We can take anything off any of our 4 and there are no issues. If its something they REALLY want they might pick it up and move away but thats rare anyway.

[Odin-Genie]

We can take anything off any of our 4 and there are no issues. If its something they REALLY want they might pick it up and move away but thats rare anyway.

Same here. I can take bones out of my dogs' mouths. This is a relief since I have sometimes found chicken bones from KFC thrown around after soccer matches at the oval So if my dogs ever pick up one of these, I simply put my hand in their mouth and take it out with a leave command.

However, at home if I need to take their bone away, I always do it with a treat. That what my dogs' trainer had suggested when they were puppies to avoid any resource guarding issues.

[~Anne~]

Hard to believe, but I have a Pug who would rather chew my arm off then let me take his bone. I was horrified when it first happened. I can take any toy or any other food away from him and he doesn't flinch (although he does give me those big sad eyes as if to say "but why?" ) but I can not take a bone from him. He has no aggression otherwise, not with pain, with new dogs, with anything.

For a while I didn't give bones but then I decided that for health reasons, they needed to have them so now I crate him and leave him for a few hours. When he has had his fun with his bone he will signal in various ways and I let him out of the crate and throw the bone.

[7464]

When you give your dog a bone, do you expect to be able to remove the bone at any stage without a reaction eg snarling or growling?

I expect no reaction from Cody. I've taken many things off him over the years and sometimes I just stick my hand in his food bowl when he's eating. Being able to take something without him getting aggro has helped him when I had to remove a small piece of bone wedged in his palate. I can imagine if he was a resource guarder he wouldn't have let me get close enough to help him.

[bc_girl]

Hi again everyone

I have contacted Cosmolo off the forum, I think in the next two weeks when I have the cash I will get her out to try and fix this. It is very upsetting when your gorgeous pup has such behavioural issues and is so loving and sweet otherwise.

Strangely, when he has had bones stuck in his mouth (happened twice in the 5 years I have had him) he has come very sheepishly up to me for me to help him. I think he knows he's called my bluff, unfortunately although backing away when he growls is giving him a victory, I believe it would be pretty stupid to challenge him when I don't know how he would react

Thanks everyone for your suggestions!

[poodlefan]

Hi again everyone

I have contacted Cosmolo off the forum, I think in the next two weeks when I have the cash I will get her out to try and fix this. It is very upsetting when your gorgeous pup has such behavioural issues and is so loving and sweet otherwise.

Strangely, when he has had bones stuck in his mouth (happened twice in the 5 years I have had him) he has come very sheepishly up to me for me to help him. I think he knows he's called my bluff, unfortunately although backing away when he growls is giving him a victory, I believe it would be pretty stupid to challenge him when I don't know how he would react

Thanks everyone for your suggestions!

Just one thing BC.. .resource guarding is a perfectly normal canine behaviour.

It may be an unwanted one, but your dog is not neurotic or "bad".

I agree it would be stupid to challenge him. Growling is a warning and conflict will not help this situation and may harm you.

Edited February 16, 2010 by poodlefan

[raineth]

Hi again everyone

I have contacted Cosmolo off the forum, I think in the next two weeks when I have the cash I will get her out to try and fix this. It is very upsetting when your gorgeous pup has such behavioural issues and is so loving and sweet otherwise.

Strangely, when he has had bones stuck in his mouth (happened twice in the 5 years I have had him) he has come very sheepishly up to me for me to help him. I think he knows he's called my bluff, unfortunately although backing away when he growls is giving him a victory, I believe it would be pretty stupid to challenge him when I don't know how he would react

Thanks everyone for your suggestions!

also don't forget that in a way it is actually good he is growling. Growling is a warning - if he didn't give you a warning it means he would jjust go straight to biting you. So you never want to teach a dog not to growl. You need to fix the underlying problem ;)

I think its great that you're getting help of cosmolo

[Rappie]

Resource guarding is tricky and I think a long term improvement does require the assistance of a behaviorist (veterinary or otherwise) - there isn't really a quick solution to it. Also broadly speaking, if you can't fix a situation (in the short term), I would recommend avoiding the situation by just not giving bones, over the alternative of potentially aggravating the situation.

They growl because they have something they value and they want to keep it. Acknowledging the growl, then going and forcing them to give the bone is just going to reinforce that, yeah, you were going to steal their bone (and probably get you bitten). Similarly if you keep backing off whenever they growl will support the idea that growling will make you go away. Removing the bone is the end aim, but they need to first learn to associate your presence with "good stuff" and hopefully learn that giving up their bone will be worth their while (they'll either get it back, or get something better, and you've "always" got something good).

Hopefully Cosmolo can get you back on track

Edited February 16, 2010 by Rappie

[huski]

Sophie has no food aggression. You have to be able to take away a bone / food / toy incase the instance arose that a dog was having a nice time about to chomp down on a canetoad or something. What this dog is doing is not acceptable behaviour. Instinctual or not I wouldnt stand for it. If it was me i'd work on removing the bone using a "mine" command and a water-pistol in the face to correct growling.

JMO but I can't imagine squirting a dog in the face with a water pistol because they are resource guarding is ever an appropriate course of aciton... like others have said, resource guarding is natural and for me it's not a case of simply not standing for a dog resource guarding. My dogs don't resource guard because they were trained not to, because they respect me and understand that food is a resource I control and something they look to me for permission to have. They know that relinquishing a bone to me is not punishment, but something that is no big deal and can be rewarding for them.

In most instances I don't think meeting aggression with aggression is the best way to handle things, because you give the dog the chance to step up and take you up on the challenge. Some dogs who get sprayed in the face with a water bottle will step it up and retaliate. If a dog is resource guarding and is particularly fearful or weak nerved you can make it worse because they learn every time you come near them when they have something high value you are going to spray them in the face.

Edited February 16, 2010 by huski

[poodlefan]

The other real concern about punishing growling is that you'll extinguish that behaviour.

A dog that doesn't give any warnings before reacting aggressively is a lot more of a handful to manage than a resource guarder that growls.

It's not necessarily an indication that you're a wonderful leader and dog owner if your dog doesn't defend its food. Sometimes you're just lucky with the dog you got. It's certainly no reason to feel superior to others dealing with this issue. Some times the fact that you've conditioned the dog not to offer resistance to you taking its food won't apply to others - especially children.

Many trainers believe that resource guarding, being a natural behaviour, can only be managed, not extinguished. It will certainly not be managed safely by responding aggressively to threat displays from the dog.

Oh, and Nick I know someone who followed the "use the squirt bottle" advice. Her dog gave her 20 stitches when she grabbed a chop bone from him.

These situations call for cool heads, not conflict.

Edited February 16, 2010 by poodlefan