Walking And Obediance.

[flux]

Hi all,

I'm having troubles with walking my pup (6.5 months), but I think in general I'm having a problem with discipline and sticking to a pattern.

Walking:

I find that I try hard to make sure the walk starts off nice and calm, with myself or my partner always leaving the "doorway" first - but then pulling ensues. So at first I would make her stop, sit and "look at me" before stepping off to walk again (always me first) - but pulling just ensues. I get a little more control with a fabric slip lead, but she is so fluffy (rough collie) that I find the lead sticks on tight and I don't actually think she can feel a difference in slack if she stops pulling. Also I am stopping a lot to make sure the slip lead stays nice and high on her head, which I think is just disrupting our "flow" if it is going right. And if she does see something fabulous (magpie, dog, puddle, sometimes random air particles) even on a slip lead she pulls until I'm really worried she'll hang herself. My confusion comes with what I keep doing to try and rectify the problems. With the slip lead, i put it up high and I can feel through the lead it squashing her throat :/ so I let it sit naturally and I can see that her fluff stops it from working effectively. So then I walk her with a "normal" lead on her collar and she just pulls all the time! I have tried changing direction, but to be honest sometimes the prospect of becoming entirely lost in a suburb does put me off these random deviations and I don't actually think she registers their intended purpose. We even took her for a walk somewhere completely different, she had never been there before (we went by car) and she still pulled as if she was in charge/knew where she wanted to go. I find I loose my temper pretty quickly, as walks are no longer any fun, in fact they now aggrivate a recent knee injury and to my horror i find myself aiming for the nearest off-leash area so she can walk well! Off leash I am very happy with her*, she basically ponders about beside me and sniffs about, goes for a bit of a dash but never goes far before coming back. So now I think, she has a very cranky owner when on the lead, and a very positive one when off and i get that i am only enhancing the problem - but how the heck do you get them to walk nicely on a lead? I half tried stopping when she pulled, but we never left the driveway - and i become conflicted with her need to let off some steam and to be walked properly on the lead. Should I really put aside half a day to walk stop-still-stop-still until she finally gets the picture? Will this actually get her to get the picture??

* this isn't entirely true. Off lead she has a habit of walking into you from the side (like heeling but with a bit of a push) to (I think) try and "herd" us. Whenever this happens i ignore her and keep walking where i was walking, knocking her snout most the time with my leg. My response however hasn't actually seemed to put her off the behaviour? Tips for a more physical-based herding breed?

Other behaviour:

At home I become conflicted with becoming angry at her behaviour and being forceful, or staying "cool" and coaxing her to do what I want. Let's take "come on out this room now, I'm leaving and I need to close the door". She knows the command "outside" which basically means head through a doorway, either in or out (i'm working on seperating the two, inside and out) but alas she won't do it. So I'm aware that this is a discipline problem and must be corrected, but my brain thinks okay, so "calm assertive" kind of use brain energy to suggest she leave - not happening, she just looks at me blankly (clearly i must work on my awesome brain power). So then i try the sweet voice of come on, lets make this a fun game, I'll reward you when you do what i want, and this usually works after the 3rd time of repeating yourself. Emotionally however, I want to march in there, grab her scruff and pointedly (not aggressivly, although I admit i am concerned this might be the start of agression in me) wheel her around and push her out the room - because I friggin' asked her once and if she doesn't do it I'll make her. Now, I am being very honest here, please don't view me as strict psycho. I am new to puppy training and one of the reasons I am writing this is so I can better how I am training her. My concern is that I am actually too angry too quickly and she is just becoming confused with my mixed messages (would you come to someone who is thinking they'd love to grab your scruff right now and march you out the room?). I also feel incredibly guilty about getting so frustrated, which I also think makes things messy for her understanding. Somedays I think - just do what you would do naturally, don't worry about what is right and wrong by someone else, this is your relationship with your dog. But I find i quickly become frustrated, and i personally feel like I don't actually have enough "set" rules for myself to follow. Like the walking, I don't actually believe stopping every time will help or work - this is the same thing, will getting angry/calm assertive/coaxing actually help? Which one to pick and stick to? Is it that I am flicking to all of them that is dooming either one to failure? When I am coaxing I feel like a joke, she is still waiting till the 3rd or 4th "plea" to do what I've asked. When I'm angry I feel like a bully, and if I'm willing to go and get her and force her to do what I'd like, then where is the incentive for her to do it herself, and who would like to do things for a bully?

Please help!

P.S "so "calm assertive" kind of use brain energy to suggest she leave - not happening, she just looks at me blankly (clearly i must work on my awesome brain power)"

Lol not just staring at the dog, I move in and attempt to use body language and energy.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Flux

[Luke W]

Walking...

Don't ever let her get any where if she's pulling. Never. Consistancy.

If you never leave the driveway. So be it. Patience. Tiny steps.

To get Barkly to walk on lead, I had to spin around in the oppsite direction every single time he surged forward. He never even got the chance to pull. If he wasn't next to my left leg, he's got spun around in the opposite direction.

"Outside"

It's not a 'discipline problem' - it's a motivation problem. Teach the dog "come" - make it a very high reward behavior.

BTW - Are you using food rewards with the dog? A pup should be getting nearly all it's food from your hand as rewards for good behaviours.

Have you read any books on dog training?

Started clicker training?

I'd recommend:

Karen Prior - Don't Shoot the Dog - Read this!!!

Karen Prior - Getting Started - Clicker Training for Dogs

Jean Donaldson - The Culture Clash

Patricia B McConnell - The Other End of the LEash

Edited February 16, 2010 by Luke W

[Daydreamer]

Flux - I feel your pain :D its really hard and I'm not sure if I can help really just wanted to say your not alone

We have a 17wk old Rhodesian Ridgeback puppy, we've only been taking her out for walks for a few weeks, at first we tried changing direction but like you say ended up going round in circles!! We now just stop dead when she starts to pull and it does seem to be working, they're only pups and it must be so frustrating with all the lovely sights, smells and sounds to explore. She was fantastic this morning on her little walk but each training session is different so who knows what tomorrow will bring

With the coming to you on command maybe have treats handy or her favourite toy when you give the command and then she gets a reward for responding to her name?

Good luck

[Aidan]

It's not a big step from here: http://positivepetzine.com/loose_leash_youtube ... to walking nicely on a loose leash. If we can condition the dog to come back to us when we stop (and we stop because the leash goes tight), then we have a polite dog.

But you must be absolutely consistent. If you only get down the street before it does your head in, fine. Don't feel conflicted, take her somewhere safe and let her run around off-leash or play some fetch, there are hundreds of ways you can exercise a dog.

[MsBex]

*taken from the link*

Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash a fairy dies and it's all your fault. Think of the fairies. :rolleyes: I like that video too Aidan, has reminded me I need to start slower instead of expecting to actually be able to walk at first.

Flux, I could have written your post. Totally understand the frustration! When Cory gets desexed in a week, I've even written down a reminder to ask vet to check his throat, as he pulls so hard, he's started making weird noises! My neighbours must think I'm a little crazy how I'm constantly walking in circles to change direction. Food's not even much of a motivation, when he's outside!

I also understand the anger side, as with Cory's nipping I range from 'thumb under tongue' to 'bah' to 'timeout' to 'planned ignoring', dependant on my frustration levels.

Not much helpful advice sorry, but commiseration, and the knowledge that your not the only one Hope some of the advice you've been given works for you!

Edited February 16, 2010 by MsBex

[Tassie]

Consistency is key (though it's so hard for us to remember that and do it. :rolleyes: )

As far as a lead goes - if you feel you need something more than a normal flat collar, I'd suggest a fabric martingale or limited slip training collar like Black Dog sells. Dog can't get out of it (well not easily) but also can't choke.

My top tips for your reaction when the dog pulls :

stop, say nothing, wait for the dog to turn to you to ask what's happening, mark that with a clicker or a marker word, then treat, start off again - rinse and repeat;

start taking some steps backwards - say and do nothing else until the dog turns to you to see what's happening, mark and reward' - start off again - rinse and repeat;

doodle - my favourite - you need to go to a more open space like an oval or something. Start walking - as soon as dog pulls, change your direction and start walking away from the direction the dog is pulling, keep changing direction until you find the lead slackening - mark and reward heavily. You can't get lost - you're in an open space - and you're probably only walking a few steps in each direction. You'll probably find after a short time that your dog is starting to quite enjoy this new game, and will be looking at you to see which way you're going next - massively reward that - with treats, but also with eye contact, enthusiastic verbal and physical praise (if the dog likes that). This is an exciting new game for you and your dog to play together.

As Aidan suggests, while you're working on this, your dog will probably not get 'walks' as such - not a problem - you can make up for it with retrieve games or other games in a safe place, and the mental exercise your dog will get from working out hhow to play the new game with you will tire him out anyway.

I taught the doodle technique to a large breed puppy owner a few days ago, and puppy and owners ended up having a really great time. The eye and brain contact that was going on between them was great to see.

[mrs tornsocks]

I am glad to read this thread and see others are in the same boat but -- my boy is 10 months. Please tell me he's got plenty of time to learn not to pull ? My 30kg weights session every morning is starting to make my left arm a little out of proportion.

[Aidan]

I am glad to read this thread and see others are in the same boat but -- my boy is 10 months. Please tell me he's got plenty of time to learn not to pull ? My 30kg weights session every morning is starting to make my left arm a little out of proportion.

Ouch! That sort of thing can lead to overuse injuries in the medium to long term.

How long do you want to give him? I'd get on to it now, start being consistent TODAY and don't stop. Think of it as a life-time investment, which it genuinely is, for the life of your dog. If you follow Tassie's written instructions, also watch my video as they are pretty much the same thing.

Find a different way to provide exercise until you're confident with the method. It won't take so long, just don't be afraid of a very high rate of reinforcement early on. Click as soon as the head turns back, click before the dog can get out in front of you, that's the stuff I constantly repeat in classes. Going to a schedule of reinforcement (reducing the frequency of reinforcement) is easy when the dog is truly ready.

[raineth]

Walking...

Don't ever let her get any where if she's pulling. Never. Consistancy.

If you never leave the driveway. So be it. Patience. Tiny steps.

I can't emphasise that bit enough! think of it this way: if you let the dog go forward while it is pulling you are rewarding it for pulling!

Now about the issue of feeling embarrassed when you are basically going around in circles - think of it this way:

A bit of effort now will mean that for years you and your dog will look fabulous together as you walk down the street, your dog walking calmly and attentively by your side

isn't that worth a bit of short term embarrassment? ;)

Oh yes and something you said in your post Flux:

I have tried changing direction, but to be honest sometimes the prospect of becoming entirely lost in a suburb does put me off these random deviations and I don't actually think she registers their intended purpose.

changing direction is an excellent way of teaching your dog to walk nicely on lead.

the moment your dog's shoulder moves in front of your leg, spin them around in the opposite direction. then when they do it again, spin them around in the opposite direction. In the early stages you will only get a few metres before you have to turn around. So you probably won't go much past your frontage

as your dog gets better you may just do a 360 turn so that you end up heading in the same direction. So no need to worry about getting lost in your suburb and ending up in a different location to where you are going.

and most importantly: reward them for the right behaviour. Often if you always reward the correct behaviour, you can get away with ignoring the behaviours you don't want ;)

good luck

[W Sibs]

Write up the rules you want your dog to follow. Read them over and over. Till YOU get it. Then you show your dog what you want it to do. You can't train your dog if you aren't sure of what you really want either. Be consistant about it.

Don't get upset... just remember that you can't be upset at something that doesn't know or understand. and, you can't be upset at yourself because you are still learning. You're bound to stumble along the way. if you feel yourself get upset, then take a deep breath and be calm. Don't be too hard on yourself... you're doing a great job, and the fact that you are worried enough and care enough to ask for advice, that's awesome

Don't feel bad for your dog if it doesn't like it. You haven't hurt it's feelings. You haven't dampen their spirit. You're not a bully. She will still love you. She's not going to feel like she is getting punished.

You don't have to be forceful to be assertive. because if you're forceful and they still don't listen, then you're going to get upset and feel negative.

If you want her out of the room... just gently guide her out of the room, don't order her verbally (because obviously she isn't listening)... so just use your body (or leash). Just simply walk over to her and make her back away out of the room... once she is out, make her sit and praise/reward her. You may have to repeat this step over and over, but eventually she is going to know that you don't want her in that room, and she is only allow in that room when you invite her in. (This is what I did to teach Charlie to say out of the kitchen... if he is in the kitchen, i simply take a step toward him and he backs out straight away... he sits at the entrance of the kitchen watching me with that cheeky smile of his )

[SmoothieGirl]

Just a note from another Collie person...

Apart from the tips you have recieved here, be very careful with being 'assertive' with a Collie, they are sensitive dogs and generally very soft. Rather you need to be clear and consistent. Collies will crumple if you try to be too assertive with them. I was assertive with my Dobermann and that worked well. I would describe my approach to my Collie as specific but gentle. What you think of as her not wanting to do something, could very well be her getting concerned and confused and retreating into herself.

I'm a big fan of Tassie's suggested approach. The second she pulls you stop dead where you are, either encourage her to come back to you, or place her back next to you, the mark the position (with a click or simply say yes) reward and move on. She pulls, you do it again. It may take you a very long time to get down the road, but its all a training experience. Also, if she starts to auto correct, ie. returning to you as soon as you stop, start to introduce a word command to go with her auto correct, then reward the second she is in the position you want her. Personally I don't walk my girl next to me unless I'm doing formal heeling, but she is NOT allow to pull. She understands 'don't pull' and will either slow down and wait or come back to me to continue on. You decide where you want her to walk on your trips out, but be consistent.

On another note, it sounds to me that she actually doesn't understand what 'outside' means as generally a Collie will do backflips to please you and fulfil its owners requests if they are clearly understood. I'd take a step back, simplify your training and requests, show her calmly what you mean and reward her exuberantly when she does it. Truely for most Collies a simple lack of acknowledgement of their attempt to respond is correction enough. Eg. If I ask Bronte to sit and she drops instead, a simple very flat toned and quiet 'no' and no reward will have her sitting up in no time. But this has been taught quietly and carefully using positive reinforcement.

Also, food rewards work brilliantly with many Collies.

Edit - Btw, drop by the Collie thread in the breed sub forum, we'd love to see photos of her.

Edited February 17, 2010 by SmoothieGirl

[flux]

Ok I'm going to admit, this has really gotten to me, and I've actually cried a little bit reading this thread. I cannot thank you all enough for your immensly helpful advice or simply show of support.

I was kind of on the right track, but then at the same time kind of off it. Watching the video clip has amazed me, I didn't actually believe the dogs who were "successful" with the whole stop and start would be a prancing, easily distracted GSDs - more proof that it's not the dog's problem at all, rather mine! Thank you so much for all your advice, I'm now going to follow all of your advice and be far more consistent and I'll let you all know how MY walking skills are progressing.

Finally, smoothiegirl, thank you for your advice on the collie as a breed. We were told by the breeder that they were a "softly spoken" breed and that to shout at a collie would just put you in their dis-trust. Very slowly we are learning the true meaning of this. (We actually arn't the type to hit or yell at a dog - despite my obvious frustration in this thread) I have grown up around border collies, but we both decided on the rough collie as a pet because they seemed so gentle, clever and quiet (But with O' so much character) but i must admit having been used to a fawning border collie when it's been told "no" we've had to adjust to our rough who simply looks "hurt and confused" when you've told her off. I think we have created some distrust between us and her already though our mistakes, but we are learning. We had the realization that she wasn't really responding to being told off about 2 months ago and have changed how we handle her and there is already massive improvement between us. So fingers crossed (And thank goodness she is a dog and not a child) she'll forgive us and trust us again soon.

So smoothiegirl, Have you had any experience with being "Herded" on a walk? Has anyone else got a herding breed and has experienced this? Sometimes I wonder if she is so confused with my lack of walking ability, it's her attempt to bridge the gap?

Again, everyone, thanks so much

P.S - I couldn't find a collie thread in Breeds 101? Am I looking in the right place? Edit - Found it!

Edited February 18, 2010 by Flux

[SmoothieGirl]

Flux I'm pleased that you found our comments and advice helpful, its really heart warming. Isn't it good to have it reconfirmed occasionally that we aren't all going mad and everyone else gets frustrated sometimes. As you stated you have already realised the best thing about a Collie, they forgive as long as you make changes to adapt to suit their style.

Bronte doesn't tend to herd me when we are walking on lead, but can do a little in the house if she wants to play, or off lead if she wants to hurry me up. But she's more inclined to herd my cat or the broom. That being said we are doing our first herding clinic tomorrow so I hope to uncover some hidden talent. Some of the other Collie clan may have experienced this though. If not, as its not as prominant in the Collies these days as they are much more 'pet-ified' than some of the other working dogs, don't be afraid to drop into the Border Collie or Kelpie threads, or even post in the Training thread, there are a few people in there that know about herding.

I'm going to swing by the Collie thread now, ohhh, I hope there's photos.

[Kynta]

Just a hint that might help with training frustration - many years ago, when I was young, an obedience instructor told me that if you ever felt you were getting angry or frustrated with training your dog just call them Darling ("Darling, please don't do that" or "What are you doing there, Darling?"). It just doesn't come out gruff - works for horses too - calms the whole situation down.

Good luck with your Collie. I bet you have heaps of success.

[flux]

It's working!!

Took about a week of no real walks, only small short trips around the backyard, then eventually down the driveway and back. I could tell this lack of walking was frustrating for Jazz, so we tried our best to supplement by driving her to the oval for a run around (so we didn't have to put her lead on for a long amount of time) and playing ball in the backyard - but it paid off. A week of frustration and doubt, walking our 7 month old pup who clearly didn't "get" why we were stopping and starting, then after the week it started to click. Now we walk her with plenty of treats and we stop every time she pulls, but her attitude on the lead has changed dramatically. Thanks again for all the support, the method works, I really just needed to learn some patience and have some faith in my hound.

[SmoothieGirl]

Great news Flux. Just when you think they are never going to get stuff they do!

[Tassie]

Well done to you for working through this, and getting to the stage where you can enjoy walking with your pup. It will be a good springboard for all her other training too, since you know, and she knows, that you can do it.

[elsa]

Walking...

Don't ever let her get any where if she's pulling. Never. Consistancy.

If you never leave the driveway. So be it. Patience. Tiny steps.

I can't emphasise that bit enough! think of it this way: if you let the dog go forward while it is pulling you are rewarding it for pulling!

Now about the issue of feeling embarrassed when you are basically going around in circles - think of it this way:

A bit of effort now will mean that for years you and your dog will look fabulous together as you walk down the street, your dog walking calmly and attentively by your side

isn't that worth a bit of short term embarrassment?

Oh yes and something you said in your post Flux:

I have tried changing direction, but to be honest sometimes the prospect of becoming entirely lost in a suburb does put me off these random deviations and I don't actually think she registers their intended purpose.

changing direction is an excellent way of teaching your dog to walk nicely on lead.

the moment your dog's shoulder moves in front of your leg, spin them around in the opposite direction. then when they do it again, spin them around in the opposite direction. In the early stages you will only get a few metres before you have to turn around. So you probably won't go much past your frontage ;)

as your dog gets better you may just do a 360 turn so that you end up heading in the same direction. So no need to worry about getting lost in your suburb and ending up in a different location to where you are going.

and most importantly: reward them for the right behaviour. Often if you always reward the correct behaviour, you can get away with ignoring the behaviours you don't want

good luck

Totally agree with this. It teaches lead respect. And just as you have to catch your dog being bad, you have to catch it being good. I havent read all the posts on this, but I strongly suggest going to dog obedience. Books are great, but there is nothing like having someone show you how to do something, and pick up on the the things you are not doing quite so right.

Good luck