persephone Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 May I put my 2 bobs' worth in here? re: Milk... yes, pups DO start on milk..BITCHES' milk.They then (if being raised without human intervention) start eating meat of ALL sorts provided by parents etc. When they are strong enough, they go to the water source & drink that. Bitch will occasionally let them drink milk still,but most of their diet is whole carcases . Milk, esp. cows' milk would only be consumed if a "pack" killed & ate a lactating animal, eating the mammary glands as well. Maybe this is why they don't have the required enzyme?? Our dogs are mostly fed fresh meat/carcases(goat,roo,rabbit,sheep)Very occasionally one will be constipated..liver sorts it out!! Psyllium husks(pharmacy or health food shop) help..when they absorb moisture, they turn into a gel-very slippery & good for helping things thru. Hamlet had to have them post bowel surgery(he's 18 kg, & had a level teaspoon once daily) Our Horse gets them as well...helps "bind" & carry thru any ingested sand. Marremmas & Fur Balls The mind boggles!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Hi persephone. Maybe this is why they don't have the required enzyme? I would think that the enzymes that catalyze an animals' milk would be species specific. Marremmas & Fur Balls The mind boggles! My mind might have to time to boggle if I wasn't worried so much. Thanks Divine Angel. Keep up the 'good' work. pew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aatainc Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 ok, the lactose thingy... Having done this in Animal Nutrition at Uni (in which, I might add, we did well over double the amount of animal nutrition that a vet does) I can safely say that the enzyme is not species specific. ALL young mammals (normal ones that is) produce lactase - the enzyme to break down lactose. Only an absolutely miniscule amount of defective animals fail to produce this. In these cases, most of the babies would die as a result because they couldn't digest mum's milk. Steve is right, after they stop drinking mum's milk the pups do stop producing lactase, however studies have shown that this is NOT a natural cessation of enzyme production - it is not on an internal timer as such - it is triggered by the enzyme's newly found redunancy after weaning. Basically, use it or lose it. When the enzyme is being produced but no longer needed the body detects the increased concentration of lactase compared to lactose and stops producing the enzyme. HOWEVER, if for some reason the animal continues to eat some lactose the enzyme will not stop being produced. Thus, when dr Harry says that over half of all pets are lactose intolerant, what he should really be saying is that over half of all pets have BECOME lactose intolerant through lack of exposure to lactose. Genuine cases of lactose intolerance from birth are very rare - and you can usually tell if that's the case because the reaction to even the tiniest amount of cheese etc will be extremely severe. This also happens when the pup does not get enough lactose in the first weeks of life - ie. - if the pup is handreared on a lactose free milk such as divetelact. I have had one of these handreared pups and his reaction to even half a teaspoon of milk/yoghurt/cheese/icecream was totally watery diarrhea for a day. He was raised on lactose free milk and I think if he had have been fed some normal bitch's or cow's milk during those early weeks he would not have had such a problem. So the moral of the story is, if you would like to feed your dog some milk products during its life then please continue to feed it some lactose products while it is young - at least once a week. Don't bother with the puppy milk it's expensive and a waste of time anyway - when MOST pups can tolerate normal cow's milk - although I still wouldn't be giving excessive amounts. Give a new pup lactose from cow's milk from weaning onwards and it will likely never react badly to it. If the breeder stops giving it lactose from weaning until you get the pup it's possible puppy may have already stopped producing lactase so there may be some upset but usually not. Also, anecdotal evidence (of my own) has shown that by slowly reintroducing lactose to an adult dog's diet he may again produce lactase and will eventually stop being lactose intolerant. When raising large breed pups that can tend to be on the skinny side through growth spurts I find the extra fat in full cream milk or yoghurt to be a good way to keep the weight on. (in fact, full fat yoghurt and oil was the only way I could get my pointer baby to stop looking like a greyhound - he was eating more than he could fit in his tummy but not putting enough fat covering on his ribs - very fat yoghurt helped fix this without filling him up any more.) as for Dr Billinghurst - he does actually recommend milk. In give your dog a bone (which seems to have been largely superseded - to some barfer's peril I think) he recommends a milk meal for puppies - it's milk plus an egg yolk plus something else which I can't remember - I think maybe oil? When we have crying pups that dont' settle well at night we give them 1 cup of warm milk with an egg yolk shaken into it which helps them sleep. One older lady who raised a pup said that if that didn't work it was more effective if you put a nip of brandy into it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aatainc Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 by the way, wanted to add - divine angel - you are doing the right thing by sticking to barf - it'll work out much better for you in the long run! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Divine Angel - I would change the vet.......... I feed BARF for many years now, yes poos are harder and smaller than those produced from feeding commercial foods. BTW my vet recommends BARF.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Thanks, aatainc, Very interesting info... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Can we ease up on the vet bashing, pretty please I'll just take my 100 hours of nutrition and put it in a little box with my 300+ hours of anatomy and physiology and go sit in a corner, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Can we ease up on the vet bashing, pretty please I'll just take my 100 hours of nutrition and put it in a little box with my 300+ hours of anatomy and physiology and go sit in a corner, lol. .....Don't be like that, rappie.... :D At least you're here to defend yourself It's not really vet bashing...sounded more like pal bashing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I'm just joshing Just noticed a little hint of "Zose vets, zey know nutting!" over the past few day *chuckles* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 :D no comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.A.H. Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 When I prepare the mince,vitamins and vegies for my dogs I always put cold pressed olive oil over the top--just about a teaspoon over a flattened block of say 125gms mince with three vegiessquashed through it all. . I have come to this decision as the dogs all poo easier now,where just every now and then one would be trying for a long time-- and they do not have any troubles starting off. Cooked meat is all the harder, and I personally think Pal tinned is about as bad as grabbing some roadkill and mashing for a dog--and I respect dogs more than that, mine get heart start mince most days! However, the Xmas season might have made a few regularities change, maybe?? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vehs Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 aatainc mentioned the milk meal billinghurst recommends: cup of milk, 2 egg yolks, teaspoon canola oil, teaspoon honey and pinch of salt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divine Angel Posted January 2, 2005 Author Share Posted January 2, 2005 Divine Angel - I would change the vet.......... Twas the only one open on New Year's Day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Hey Divine Angel. I had a Dentist once who used to advertise on the back of 'shop-a-docket' :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 (edited) . Edited December 13, 2008 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noisymina Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Yoghurt or even a few doses of "inner health" should help,. Oils for sure. Ours has apples in her Barf plus some banana each morning (shared with dad) as well as leftover fruit in or around the home. In fact , dad has learned to give the dog her banana first, not last as he used to do - otherwise he has do wipe up the puddle of drool off the kitchen floor! Jed- I've taken to cooking the pumpkin and sweet potato too - for the same reason - the processor has a hard time handling these. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 (edited) Hey Divine Angel. :D Cost and convenience is also a consideration. This is a standard days feed for the puppies, I am waiting on Pal to send me somepuppy starter packs, so hopefully they will come through the week. Breaky------- 2 weetbix. I moisten them with warm water then add Puppy Milk to make a runny paste and when they finish that they get a dry piece of toast. Lunch--------1/2 cup dry puppy food. Tea----------- 1/2 cup dry food, and 1/2 to 3/4 cup Pal Puppy tinned food. This may be too much for her or she may be a pig and eat it all. When I feed them they all hog in and it is hard to gauge which puppy eats more than the other. So alter it as she needs it. They enjoy raw chicken wings & carcasses. I found that the chicken necks are a bit of a problem as they all try to swallow them. So I only give them wings or carcasses. And as a night cap; a small drink of puppy milk. They have gone off that lately, but it is up to you. It is up to you. Edited January 2, 2005 by pewithers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 (edited) Can we ease up on the vet bashing, pretty please Sorry, Rappie, no offence intended. And - vets care for the physical welfare of our animals, but cannot always be expected to be nutritionists as well!! Seeing as they are already expected to be physicians, psychologists, surgeons, pathologists, microbiologists, grief counsellors and organisers of cranes to remove horses from swimming pools on Christmas day. Vets who graduate from Lalaland's university do about 100 hours of ANIMAL nutrition, not CANINE nutrition. However, I do think a vet who recommends a diet of Pal probably needs a bit of a bash upside of the chops - unless he was recommending it specifically for constipation. I have only admiration for vets per se, but some ---- well, you do have to wonder .. present company expected!! Edited to say - Have you ever SEEN the size and scope of the excreta of a Maremma fed on Pal?? :D Edited January 2, 2005 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 (edited) You're forgiven Jed We do 100 hours of fairly tradition nutrition, and no its not entirely canine but it might be suprising how applicable the general principles are. It's also pretty hard to say that in 5 years I will only know 100 hours worth of nutrition. Anyhow its not really about numbers of hours - I don't want to know how my "Study" time compares to my "lecture" time because it would probably only end up demonstrating that I have no life, lol. I think when it comes to the choices that individual vets make, it really is the individual that makes them and not a reflection (not neccessarily anyway) of the education they received. As it is, I've read (and own) Raw Meaty Bones, still tracking down Ian Billinghurst's book - and (still) in the process of completing the Hills Nutritional Advisor Program - not really swayed either way. IMHO - owners should feed what suits them best, suits their dog best and what they can best afford. I'm not down with people being "guilted" into making decisions and as a (future) vet I would prefer to do my best to support people with making sensible choices, not be dictating any particular one to them. That said *I* feel that it is *my* responsibility to at least be able to offer guidance on the more "alternative" options (being it BARF, alternative therapies etc) even if that only be offering to do research or refer to someone who does know :D Edited January 2, 2005 by Rappie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 (edited) Hey Rappie. IMHO - owners should feed what suits them best, suits their dog best and what they can best afford. I'm not down with people being "guilted" into making decisions and as a (future) vet I would prefer to do my best to support people with making sensible choices, not be dictating any particular one to them. Halleluia to that. Too much of my time is consumed trying to mediate beween the guilt trip that some have tried to lay on me and others. I much prefer to discuss the erudite opinions of others. The rest should just shut up and listen. Did I forget to mention? I :protest: in the strongest terms :D Edited January 2, 2005 by pewithers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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