Vet Told Me To Switch From Barf

[wylie]

I really think you need to decide what sort of diet you are feeding her and stick to that and modify her feed according to that diet.

Are you feeding a BARF diet or a RAW diet. They are both very different.

Milk is not advisable in either of those feeding styles.

Usually when a dog is constipated here it is because they have been fed to much bone and not enough meat.

Small amounts of fresh liver are helpful as well.

Have you tried hearts they are a muscle meat which is good chewing with lots of nutrition in them. My pups adore them.

I feed a modified RAW diet (very very minimal dry, its really only in emergencies) and my pups get some dry as I know ther new owners on the whole will feed them some dry kibble. My 7 week old pups can chew a chunk of heart or a chicken drumstick or a lamb flap with the best of the adults. Thy have never been constipated and they are growing nicely.

[Tralee]

Hi wylie.

Divine Angel has my pups older cousin.

Milk is not advisable in either of those feeding styles.

I am sure that milk is inappropriate as you state but the rational being?

PS Sorry. Trained scientist here.

[Guest Riayn]

A vet recommended PAL?? Well, if one's thing for certain, it will definitely get rid of the constipation - your pup will have a not so healthy dose of the 'runs' being fed that garbage. Besides, why waste your money on something that is 80% water and the rest of it meat from an indeterminate source.

I second all the opinions that has suggested uping the meat content of your pup's diet. I tend to fed my guys 2 days worth of bones like chicken wings, and then feed them a good quality mince on the 3rd day. Keeps them nice and regular. You could try adding pureed pumpkin to your pup's as it is high in fibre, which is good for keeping things regular.

Best of luck!

[wylie]

Dogs are carnivores and cant go out and get themselves a bottle of milk. LOL

If you are going to feed milk you would be better off feeding goats milk (now thats an expensive option), it is apparently much closer to being a bitches milk.

You need to join some of the barf or raw groups that are around on Yahoo.

I cant tell you much more other than that as my Billinghurst books are packed away and my RAW book I just lent to a friend who was having a huge debate with me about feeding her dogs table scraps and dry.

You could always try raw whole eggs my guys adore them. They eat them shell and all.

If you need info on groups just let me know and I will be happy to point you in the direction.

[Tralee]

Thanks wylie.

My Breeder gives the pup 'puppy milk' for supper which she says is available, but I haven't seen it yet.

The fact that milk is not suitable for dogs, is amazing since they start out on milk.

Doesn't the kid on the Oreo ad. give his pooch his milk?

[wylie]

Yes he does give his pooch his milk

Puppy milk is available at your local supermarket in the dog food section. I think its called Pets Own. I think it is a blue tetra pack and comes in two sizes which just goes to show how long it is since i have bought it.

If I have to supplement feed pups that are not yet weaned I tend to use one of the milk replacers like Divetelac or Biolac.

[lavender]

Cows' milk can cause allergies in dogs (humans too). I think commercial puppy milk is processed to reduce lactose. It my limited experience either cows' milk or tinned food (small amounts) can alleviate constipation. Doesn't say much for either of these products though.

[mcboxer]

Thanks wylie.

My Breeder gives the pup 'puppy milk' for supper which she says is available, but I haven't seen it yet.

The fact that milk is not suitable for dogs, is amazing since they start out on milk.

Doesn't the kid on the Oreo ad. give his pooch his milk?

You can buy puppy milk from the supermarket. Pal put one out so does Natures Own. It's usually near all of the foods and chews for pups.

my breeder also uses puppy milk for supper.

BTW wylie, they can't go and get themselves vaccinated either.

[Tralee]

Hi lavender.

Lactose intolerance is hardly pandemic in dogs or humans.

Some dogs may have it but, I am yet to be convinced that milk is unsuitable for the majority of dogs.

Being overly cautious may appear wise but it is hardly very helpful.

Maremmas love cheese.

If anybody knows the dogs would.

There is a bit of a contradiction here, i think.

In my limited experience either cows' milk or tinned food (small amounts) can alleviate constipation.

That is what I said and was advised that it is unsuitable.

This question is far from resolved as far as I am concerned.

Edited January 1, 2005 by pewithers

[Bouledogue Français]

Mine all get goat milk. Actually they all get the odd drink even when I dont have babies.

Edited to add: I forgot the question about changing from barf, did the vet give you any other advice or even some oil until you got her to go again, or wanted to see her back etc? Anything other than that stupid comment about giving a can of Pal?

Keep feeding what you are feeding and maybe add some oil, more meat, you have been given some good suggestions.

Pal ??

Edited January 1, 2005 by Brigantia

[wylie]

The only milk product Billinghurst recommends is Kefir.

The history of kefir is centuries old. The word "kefir" is said to have originated from the word "keif" which means" good feeling". Kefir is like yogurt, but with a greater variety of cultures and significant health benefits. Unlike yogurt, which typically contains only two or three different bacteria, true kefir contains a greater range of different microorganisms, each with its own unique contribution. This is what separates kefir from all other cultured milk products. Kefir is made by fermentation of "kefir" grains, which resemble minute cauliflowers. The grains consist of casein and colonies of microorganisms that are grown together symbiotically. Kefir can only be made from pre-existing grains.

The cultured kefir added to Dr. Billinghurst's BARF DIET™ processes antimicrobial activity against a wide variety of gram positive and gram negative bacteria, helping to eliminate destructive pathogenic yeast and internal parasites. The cultured kefir in Dr. Billinghurst's BARF DIET™ also contains a unique extract of colostrum. All mammals produce colostrum, sometimes called "first milk" or "foremilk". Research has shown that concentrated forms of colostrum are able to block the effects of harmful pathogens and aid in the maintenance of a healthy intestinal tract. Colostrum also contains other nonspecific immune factors including lactoferrin and lactoperoxidase, which help control pathogens or harmful bacteria. These natural immune components can recognize and resist multiple species of common bacteria such as E. coli, Staphylococci, Streptococci, Klebsiella, Enterococci, Pseudomonas, Clostridium Difficile, and Cryptosporidium.

Kefir is considered to be one of the richest sources of enzymes. It plays a vital role in the development of a healthy digestive tract and helps improve the immune system. Kefir contains minerals and essential amino acids, an abundance of calcium and magnesium. Rich in vitamin B1, B12, calcium, amino acids, folic acid and vitamin K, it is an excellent source of biotin which aids the body's assimilation of other B vitamins. Other benefits include bowel regularity and decreased lactose intolerance. Evidence shows that the appropriate strains of lactic acid bacteria in fermented milk products can alleviate symptoms of lactose intolerance by providing bacterial lactase to the intestine and stomach. Kefir is recommended to restore intestinal flora while recovering from illness or when being treated with antibiotics. It eliminates unwanted toxins and pollutants in the body, just like antioxidants do with free radicals. Kefir enjoys a rich tradition of health claims and is known around the world for its preventative characteristics.

I am not going to get into the vaccination debate. Sorry.

[Vehs]

divine angel: any fruit - overripe even and blend/mash it down. Apples, bananas, peaches.

Has the enema helped any ?

[Tralee]

Hey wylie.

Top job

However, while I am familiar with gram negative and positive bacteria, am aware that casein is a milk protein, know what symbiosis is, and can appreciate the prophylactic actions of lactoferrin and lactoperoxidase, I have yet to be convinced that lactose intolerance in dogs is as prevalent as is assumed.

Could this just be another case of vested interests and misinformation?.

[wylie]

Here's another one

While milk is not necessary to a dog's (or cat's) diet, it can be a treat if given from time to time. However, some pets cannot tolerate milk because they do not produce an enzyme called lactase. Lactase helps with the digestion of lactose, which is found in milk. After weaning, the level of lactase activity falls to about 10 per cent of its peak activity. In some animals, diarrhea will occur if more lactose (i.e. milk) is consumed than the pet can digest. This is called "lactose intolerance".

A further contributing factor is the fact that cow and goat milk contains 4.5 to 5 per cent lactose, compared to 3.1 per cent in a bitch's milk (lactating female dogs) and 4.2 per cent in a queen's milk (lactating female cats). The high level of lactose in cow's milk can overpower a dog or cat's ability to digest it. This is why many pups and kittens often get diarrheea from drinking cow's milk. This does not mean that milk is unhealthy for dogs and cats. On the contrary, in pets that are able to tolerate it, milk can be an excellent source of protein and calcium.

Pets with milk intolerance can still consume dairy products under certain circumstances. For example, dairy products such as cheese (including cottage cheese) and unpasteurized yogurt usually have the lactose removed or have it partially broken down through bacterial action. As a result, these products are often well tolerated by cats and dogs that would otherwise get diarrhea after drinking milk.

It should be stated that neither boiling milk nor the use of skim milk affects an animal's ability to tolerate milk, since the lactose content remains unchanged in either case. The same applies to pasteurized yogurt and cultured milk (e.g. buttermilk), neither of which is well tolerated by lactase-deficient pets.

If a dog or cat has loose stools whenever milk is fed, that pet is likely to be lactose intolerant and milk should be withheld. It is also wise to advise your veterinarian of this fact and discuss the potential implications involved with regard to your pet.

Oh what wonders google searches do. By the way this is not from a BARF or Raw website

[Tralee]

Hey wylie.

Great post.

However, some pets cannot tolerate milk because they do not produce an enzyme called lactase.

A further contributing factor is the fact that cow and goat milk contains 4.5 to 5 per cent lactose, compared to 3.1 per cent in a bitch's milk The high level of lactose in cow's milk can overpower a dog or cat's ability to digest it. 

On the contrary, in pets that are able to tolerate it, milk can be an excellent source of protein and calcium.

If a dog or cat has loose stools whenever milk is fed, that pet is likely to be lactose intolerant and milk should be withheld.

i) The emphasis here is on some, surely there is epidemiological data on the percentages of dogs with lactose intolerance. Or would that give people cause not to purchase the products from the companies who finance these research projects.

ii) A logical reasoned arguement. But it is only exacerbated in dogs that are lactose intolerance. The level of lactose in the 2 litres of milk that I drink each day certainly overpowers my digestive system but there still are no ill effects.

iii) At last a balanced arguement that presents both sides.

iv) And this is a pearler. A simple test that can be done by all dog guardians to examine their dogs for lactose intolerance.

I have received 3 similar posts in other threads that can be deemed exceptional.

I count this one the fourth.

On behalf of Divine Angel and my humble self; thank you.

Edited January 1, 2005 by pewithers

[Jed]

Hi, DA - I hope the constipation problem has abated - consider, as others have suggested, adding oil to her food a couple of times a week.

Also - fruit and veges - put through the processor and added to the meat

NO TOMATOES

NO ONIONS

NO GRAPES

NO RAW POTATOES

NO CABBAGE

Mine get whatever is not expensive - pears, apples, bananas, stone fruits, broccoli, carrots, pumpkin (though I do soften the pumpkin in the microwave - more for the processor's motor than the dogs!!)etc.

And also, consider giving her a small tin of sardines in oil - 1/2 a tin per meal - this not only helps with constipation, but provides a change, and fish oils.

The secret to any diet is variety. Heart, kidney, liver - but not as a major proponent of the diet - are good too

I would question (and probably argue) with a vet who suggested Pal. Canine nutrition is not a big subject in vet school. Some vets learn as they go along - mostly from other vets, or breeders (my own phoned me a couple of times to see what my puppies ate), but some don't, they simply follow the dog food company line.

Pal does help with constipation, but so do the things listed above.

The Pal rep will tell you that Advance, which they also make, is the quality food in the range - and that ought to tell you something about Pal!!

Everyone has their own feeding regime, and, of couse, we all think ours is the best!! There are many good diets for dogs - including solely feedng one of the QUALITY dry foods - but Pal is not one of them!!

I've never fed puppy milk, only cows milk, and I've never had a lactose intolerant dog, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, and I don't think too much milk is particularly good for an adult dog.

[Jed]

DA - a lot of vets don't like BARF. Some see it as not balanced, and too difficult for the average pet owner to feed a balanced diet, and consequently f feel that at leas commercial food is balanced. It is possible to have an imbalance in home made diets, which is not good for the dog.

However, if you check out the information on BARF, and remember to keep the diet varied, you should have no problem.

pewithers

They should hand them out regularly to some DOLers though I suspect a few use them regularly.

With such an opinion, pew, I wonder why you continue to visit this site.

[Tralee]

Hey Jed.

I would question (and probably argue) with a vet who suggested Pal.  Canine nutrition is not a big subject in vet school.

Of course not. If our dogs did not get sick then most Vets. would be out of a job. And based on the advice given to Divine Angel some should be.

Primary management, or prevention is not big in any profession.

With such an opinion, pew, I wonder why you continue to visit this site.

Here is another.

Proper contraception over the last three decades would have prevented a lot of our current problems. High school Staff Rooms have been a bad influence on me.

I am also a quick learner, and have some excellent mentors on DOL.

pew

[Steve]

If the vet is saying her poos are a bit fibrous [and thats the problem] sardines in oil will fix the problem Sometimes in springtime my guys have poos that look like they have eaten rope BUT Ive never had a situation where they are trying to poo for such a long time and cant so Im glad you took her to the vet as it did sound more potentially serious .

Now to cows milk for dogs. Firstly all mammals drink milk until they about triple their birth weight . In fact humans are the only mammal that drink milk past this time and all mammal milk is different Bitch milk is much higher in fat than cows milk and has most things hugely different in ratio. Because milk isnt consumed past the time it takes to triple their birth weight many mammals lose the ability to manufacture an enzyme which is required to break down the lactose in milk . This is called lactase and its in the small intestine and produced by the pancreas.

Cheese does not contain anywhere near the amounts of lactose and it has other enzymes which help to break it down.

Even in humans and animals that dont any longer manufacture lactase the natural bacteria and flora in the intestine is enough to be able to digest and assimilate the lactose as long as its in easily managed amounts and as long as there has been no antibiotics prescribed.

Remember also that pasturisation and homogenisation have an impact on the assimilation and digestion of milk .Pasturisation kills off another enzyme called phosphatase which is needed for the digestion of calcium and milk is high in phosporous so there is a potential in feeding milk products that have been pasturised in large quantities that calcium absorption may be interupted. Homogenisation is a process where a chemical called xanthine oxidase is introduced to the mix which keeps the fat cells evenly distributed in the liquid rather than sitting on the top as it used to in the old days . This surrounds the fat cells in the milk and its absorbed straight into the bloodstream . This has also been looked at regarding its impact on brain cells and agressive behaviour.

All this simply brings us to a situation where we can give our dogs some milk if we want to . If we want to give it gas, cramps and runny poos we should give it lots of milk . Cows milk is good for baby cows and adult cows wont touch it .

As always the message is a varied diet and all things in moderation.

[Divine Angel]

OK- will add more fish to her diet.

Gave her some cooked pasta last night to make up for the lack of dry food.

The vet gave her some Coloxal to soften the poo. She takes one, twice daily. (I should mention that the poo wasn't all that hard to begin with, wasn't backing up in the colon, and the vet removed a poo which was 'plugging' up the bottom so nothing else could get out.

Yes, the enema worked. (funny story about that- the vet said to take her outside for a couple of minutes for it to take effect. Jasmine did nothing but sniff around and growl at a poor Blue Heeler would had hurt his paw and was in so much pain that he barked at everything that moved. Forty minutes later, Jasmine had done a couple of huge farts but no poo. The vet came out and said, "Take her home, she'll probably feel safer in her own environment." So we did. As soon as she was in our yard, she did a big poo (wasn't too runny but I bet it felt good for Jasmine!) and since then, I haven't seen her do a poo which is not to say that she hasn't. I don't follow her outside at 4am to see what she's doing.)

Jasmine is happy and playful and bouncy and eating and drinking and doinf all the things she normally does. Her tummy isn't hard anymore and I would say that she's near-100% again.

What I have learned from all your posts (thankyou BTW) is that I need to give her more meat, less bones, more oil and more fish. And mash up some overripe fruit as well. But no grapes, raw potatoes, tomatoes etc.

AND: will try to keep her away from fur, hair, and birdseed. And bark. (The poor tree in the yard is devoid of bark and boy, does Jas love to chew it!!!)