Heidii Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 You contradicted yourself saying that the breed needs enducance and then go on to say about dbl handling for tired dogs - I was wondering how a dog that's tired after a few laps exhibits endurance Thanks Pockets for the explanation regarding it being used for bored or unfocused dog ;) firstly, its not a few laps, espcially in the older classes. Enducance has nothing to do with double handling but in saying that double handlng keeps the dog alert, ears up and concentraing lap after lap....its normal for a dog to get tired, but tired dogs dont always look exuberant and alert...double hanlding helps this!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) MD:Angelsun, GSDs are supposed to have endurance. So do an Endurance Test with them. 20km at 10km per hour is a better test of structural stability than a handful of laps around a ring wouldn't you say? To pass requires obedience, soundness and fitness. Just the ticket I say. Poodlefan, have you ever competed/double handled in a GSD specialty show? Given that I've never owned a GSD, I think the answer is fairly obvious. ;) I've got a dog with an Endurance Title though. Have you? His heart rate dropped across the distance and he passed three vet checks and two obedience tests on the day. That's two hours of trotting btw. Edited February 12, 2010 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 MD:Angelsun, GSDs are supposed to have endurance. So do an Endurance Test with them. 20km at 10km per hour is a better test of structural stability than a handful of laps around a ring wouldn't you say? To pass requires obedience, soundness and fitness. Just the ticket I say. Poodlefan, have you ever competed/double handled in a GSD specialty show? Given that I've never owned a GSD, I think the answer is fairly obvious. ;) I've got a dog with an Endurance Title though. Have you? His heart rate dropped across the distance and he passed three vet checks and two obedience tests on the day though. That's two hours of trotting btw. Actually yes, my past dogs got their endurance titles, but my new pup I show is only 5 months old!!! however, Your views on the specialty ring and why it is a circus and shouldnt be allowed in the all breeds ring is IRRELEVENT because you have never been in one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirst_goldens Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 im a newbie... hence intimidation... Im a newbie to the specialist ring too and love it!......all breeds is BORING and focuses more on the handles rather than the DOGS!! I have not found it intimidating at all, im mean...how can it be?? until people have actually done a specialist shepherd show their view is irrelevant! I explained how it is intimidating in my post.. and i dont think others (who have not done spec show) opinions are irrelevant at all, all opinions are good in a discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 im a newbie... hence intimidation... Im a newbie to the specialist ring too and love it!......all breeds is BORING and focuses more on the handles rather than the DOGS!! I have not found it intimidating at all, im mean...how can it be?? until people have actually done a specialist shepherd show their view is irrelevant! I explained how it is intimidating in my post.. and i dont think others (who have not done spec show) opinions are irrelevant at all, all opinions are good in a discussion I just found it, im the same age as you, its just me and my partner too but we JOINED THE CLUB and got to know people, you know, took some initiative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) Actually yes, my past dogs got their endurance titles, but my new pup I show is only 5 months old!!! however, Your views on the specialty ring and why it is a circus and shouldnt be allowed in the all breeds ring is IRRELEVENT because you have never been in one! You miss my point Heidii. I don't have to be in one any more than I have to hit my foot with a hammer to know it hurts. Having seen two GSD specialties I have formed the conclusion I don't WANT to be in one. You can double handle in your breed specialties till the cows come home if that's what you want to do but please don't distract my dog or give me a migrane by jumping up and down outside the ring waving a dead cat and and doing your best impression of a mating possum at the top of your lungs. ;) What will I do for my Whippet anyway? Have someone release live prey just outside the ring? Lets leave allbreeds the way it is. I actually enjoy a nice chat ringside and don't want to have to use sign language to the person sitting next to me. [ok I'm exaggerating a bit - I've not seen a dead cat used] Edited February 12, 2010 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 im a newbie... hence intimidation... Im a newbie to the specialist ring too and love it!......all breeds is BORING and focuses more on the handles rather than the DOGS!! I have not found it intimidating at all, im mean...how can it be?? until people have actually done a specialist shepherd show their view is irrelevant! opinions are irrelevant at all, all opinions are good in a discussion Im guessing you meant "arnt"? well i think they are when there are people with no experience or knowledge in the subject speaking against it, how is that a good 'dicussion'?....A discussion is only good when there are people with experience in the subject! ...so far ALL people on here who compete in the specialist ring do not see double handling as a disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) I dont own a GSD and have thus never entered a GSD specialty (have watched a little though) and I KNOW I will never enter one!! Why... I HAVE been judged by a GSD specialtist and have vowed never again LOL. After 9 laps for 1st and 2nd place Junior dog, ' 1st, no 2nd, again, no 1st, 2nd......' it did come down to the handler being able to do the 9 laps!! With NO double handling (simply because it is not a big thing in our club although I am not nieve enough to believe it doesnt happen) most dogs were still as alert and happy to go as they were in the first lap as they were in the last. The ones that werent were the ones that were badly put together or were unfit. They are working dogs that are expected to maintian their enthusiasm for work until they drop dead- and they all did that! (ETA there was just a significant difference at the point where the dogs thought they were going to drop dead so at that point their enthusiasm dropped off and this might have been masked by double handling and they might have been awarded better than what they should have been! and generally these dogs dont do well in all breeds or past specialty shows anyway, even without running 9 laps!) In the Junior dog class both our dogs were pulling their owners (who were the ones lagging) by the end. At this age neither were eligable for the ET but my boy will be doing, hopefully pulling my bike around the course if I have anything to do with it. So in this case we were subjected (ok maybe a little harsh but I had a few dogs entered and had already done a flyball comp the day before!) to the same proceedure as a GSD specialty with next to no double handling and most of the dogs still did well. I really dont think that excessive double handling is required if the dog is trained and fit. I do however always stand in the same place if someone else is handling my bitch as she watches for me and so it is easier for me to stand so she points in the right direction and give the handler a fighting chance with her. So if it is something that subtle go for it- if it involves noise, movement etc that makes it obvious then doesnt that mean that you have not trained your dog to do the job you are asking it to do? Edited February 12, 2010 by woofenpup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirst_goldens Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 im a newbie... hence intimidation... Im a newbie to the specialist ring too and love it!......all breeds is BORING and focuses more on the handles rather than the DOGS!! I have not found it intimidating at all, im mean...how can it be?? until people have actually done a specialist shepherd show their view is irrelevant! I explained how it is intimidating in my post.. and i dont think others (who have not done spec show) opinions are irrelevant at all, all opinions are good in a discussion I just found it, im the same age as you, its just me and my partner too but we JOINED THE CLUB and got to know people, you know, took some initiative. I have never shown in GSD spec - thought u were thinking i had so thought i should clarafy, i am just saying that people can get intimidated and if u dont then thats awesome! u must have alot of self confidence that some others do not. i can appriciate that many enjoy this type of showing and i can see why, but i dont, its not really my thing and thats my opinion... we have also tried to make friends but am finding that many arnt interested in helping or even general conversation unless u are interested in showing their dogs or buying a puppy... this is a discussion on a threat on a friendly site after all... so i am still trying to make friends and what not... though comments like urs are a little discouraging - and more then unnecessany, there are many ways of saying this without being rude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirst_goldens Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 im a newbie... hence intimidation... Im a newbie to the specialist ring too and love it!......all breeds is BORING and focuses more on the handles rather than the DOGS!! I have not found it intimidating at all, im mean...how can it be?? until people have actually done a specialist shepherd show their view is irrelevant! opinions are irrelevant at all, all opinions are good in a discussion Im guessing you meant "arnt"? well i think they are when there are people with no experience or knowledge in the subject speaking against it, how is that a good 'dicussion'?....A discussion is only good when there are people with experience in the subject! ...so far ALL people on here who compete in the specialist ring do not see double handling as a disadvantage. Sorry i did mean arnt** typo u can have knowledge about double handling without doing it... and even so... discussions like this can also be a learning point for some.. so them getting involved can teach them alot about the subject, is it wrong to want to learn about it from talking?? how did this turn out to be so nasty?? i made a comment and u have apparently taken it too seriously... after all this is just a conversation... relax?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Firstly, let me point out that I have double handled in both the specialty GSD ring and the GSD all breed ring..however I do not get assistance from anyone with a whistle, cowbell or squeeky as indicated in my first response. The trick to double handling is getting the dog focused as has been stated by others in this thread....tired or bored dog (regardless of the breed) can benefit from this sort of thing. I do not agree with the double handling techniques used SOLEY in the GSD ring and as such, never used them and yet was still competative being judged in that ring. If as has been mentioned, the dogs in that breed are being judged on endurance as well, I agree..get an ET...good on those that have achieved it as it's NOT easy to do for ANY breed. When the majority of people discuss double handling, the GSD's are usually first to pop into mind because of the circus that usually happens at a specialty show. Can't deny it people....there are lots of us that have seen it (and been doing it) and it IS in fact deplorable what happens all in the attempt to 'get a dog to focus' or simply keep him running..... I state again after being an all breed handler and doing not only GSD specialties but MANY other breed specialties...the GSD specialty events are well known for double handling and it being the accepted norm. The onlookers are in fact amused and entertained by this behaviour and as someone that's been both inside the ring and watched from the outside, I have seen the majority of dogs not respond to double handling..so therefore..is it effective? Someone commented earlier on how a squeeky used by another exhibitor would set off their dog to distraction.....distraction is not focus....we know that anything used to the point where it is not exciting and new, a dog will naturally begin to ignore the stimulus (because that is what double handling really is...a new stimulus) We have also seen time and time again, dogs being 'doubled' and not producing the desired results because 1)the doubler is in the wrong spot 2) the stimulus doesn't excite the dog anymore 3)too much stimulus results in a dog that is not focused on anything. I have been to everything from toy group specialties, to breed specific ones, from the big terrier shows in the States (Montgomery for those that are into the terrors!) and to working dog and herding dog breed specific specialties...there is not ONE of those that permits a second outside ring and blatent double handling.....All these breeds believe that their dogs are designed for a purpose and should be shown to their best to exhibit that strength, tenacity or motion as well of course as the basic conformation of the dogs and yet, there is not ONE breed or group out there ANYWHERE that permits the use of a double ring and people running around with whistles and cowbells.... Yes I double handle when I feel I need to do it...no, you won't ever know when I'm doing it and please...feel free to come ring side and try to catch me...many have....for many years...remember..I've been doing this a long time, and professionally for longer than I care to remember....I got paid to handle better and to know how to push the dogs buttons.... I personally would like to see ANY breed or group specialty judged in one manner....without the permission to double handle in the beleif that one breed is so special that it has the privaleges that other breeds either do not or would never desire to have. I beleive that if anyone discusses this matter with others familiar with their breed specialties, you would find that the GSD's are in fact a minority in how they do things at specialties. As for the comment about only one standard....please feel free to also ask the labrador people and the golden people that as well...they will be happy to tell you of those that breed "field" dogs versus conformation show dogs....they look and act differently.....such is also the case with the GSD breeders that breed for All Breed versus Specialty. However that is not the discussion....the case of double handling in fact is and hopefully I've answered or helped explain a few things that maybe others don't want to discuss..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I was not mocking anyones opinion, the topic is double handling, I don't see how double handling is intimidating at all ??? I am not a person that has been showing for many many years, my first girl is a successful bitch in both the specialty ring and the all breeds ring, I have never ever found showing specialty intimidating, most people are accomodating and helpful and many people been in the breed for years are happy to help out newcomers to the breed... I'm not a clown, there a no elephants, no daring young men on flying trapize, therefore I find it quite rude and insulting to call our specialty shows a circus, the time and effort that goes into fitness and training for these shows is endless, so unless you have experienced the GSD ring for yourself and understand the effort that goes in by both owners, handlers, breeders and double handlers I too find other opinions irrelevant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I'm not a clown, there a no elephants, no daring young men on flying trapize, therefore I find it quite rude and insulting to call our specialty shows a circus, the time and effort that goes into fitness and training for these shows is endless, so unless you have experienced the GSD ring for yourself and understand the effort that goes in by both owners, handlers, breeders and double handlers I too find other opinions irrelevant Then maybe you need to reread the first post. This thread is about allowing what goes on in the GSD specialty ring into allbreeds shows. Do what you like in your own specialty ring. Just don't expect other breed exhibitors to embrace the proposal to allow it in theirs. ;) I find it rude that to suggest that the GSD specialty system should prevail in allbreeds shows when you are one breed among hundreds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirst_goldens Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) me thinks its time to shake head in frustration and confusion and walk away lol ;) i give up i was just trying to be involved in discussion sorry Edited February 12, 2010 by kirst_goldens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I don't expect double handling to be allowed, It wouldn't work if it was I never said I supported double handling to that extent be allowed in the all breeds ring, I said I have no issues with other exhibitors using food and toys if it works for their dogs.. I don't use anything in the all breeds ring fory dogs. So maybe you should re-read my posts ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I don't expect double handling to be allowed, It wouldn't work if it was I never said I supported double handling to that extent be allowed in the all breeds ring, I said I have no issues with other exhibitors using food and toys if it works for their dogs.. I don't use anything in the all breeds ring fory dogs. So maybe you should re-read my posts ;) Or perhaps you could stay on topic and discuss the subject as posted. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 We have been guilty of double handling. I certain GSD love cavs in particular a tricolour. So we have just casually strolled past with the our tricolour. Now that got his attention. As Angelsun states subtly is the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss B Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 but please don't distract my dog or give me a migrane by jumping up and down outside the ring waving a dead cat and and doing your best impression of a mating possum at the top of your lungs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Actually poodlefan, I was commenting on earlier posts, if it serves me correct you brought up specialities being circus', quite insulting to a Lot of people, as I said when people put so much effort into time training, fitness etc they and I certainly don't appreciate it being called a circus which was my point. Subtle double handling can be done in the all breeds ring, I don't see the issue your not cheating IMO, your just making the dog look it's best, I certainly wouldn't reccomend all breeds shows be run like a specialty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Actually poodlefan, I was commenting on earlier posts, if it serves me correct you brought up specialities being circus', quite insulting to a Lot of people, as I said when people put so much effort into time training, fitness etc they and I certainly don't appreciate it being called a circus which was my point. Subtle double handling can be done in the all breeds ring, I don't see the issue your not cheating IMO, your just making the dog look it's best, I certainly wouldn't reccomend all breeds shows be run like a specialty Thank God for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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