Pockets Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Miss Danni is correct, GSD's should be able to work, they need to be fit and firm, one lap does not show anything of a dogs endurance, I too have seen dogs fall apart and tire because they just dont have the stamina.. These dogs look fantastic at the start of the class, but fade away and start to drop down the line..... A good double handler knows when to let the dog go on its own and when to come out and call the dog, its an art :D Yes, thanks Miss Danni, great double handler is I I think being a double handler is the most stressful part, the handler expects you to be in 10 places at once Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 MD:Angelsun, GSDs are supposed to have endurance. So do an Endurance Test with them. 20km at 10km per hour is a better test of structural stability than a handful of laps around a ring wouldn't you say? To pass requires obedience, soundness and fitness. Just the ticket I say. An endurance test does not look at a dogs conformation, colour, pigment, dentition etc, its not a show A judge does not know who the dog is that walks into the ring (well local judges may, but international judges dont usually) they dont have the privillege of looking at a dog name and seeing it has it ET :D A GSD Specialty show incorporates how a GSD is constructed conformation wise, how it moves around the ring, fitness and endurance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I agree that ANY dog that is stunning on the stack can fall to bits on the move, however a good judge can see that clearly by the first turn. As for judging on endurance, it's more the handlers than the dogs I think....that was always the running joke during specialties, that who ever kept running the longest was the winner..... I do not agree that running a ton around the ring shows if a dog is a better example of the breed..if that were the case we would require shotguns going off over the gundog ring, and whoever didn't bolt, would stay to be judged, we would release rodents to the terriers and those that snatched and grabbed would be eligible for a ribbon, and what about the other herding (pardon me, 'working') breeds that are not judged in the same fashion as the GSD? Are we assuming that the Border Collie doesn't have to be as fit and sturdy as a shepherd? Should we honestly beleive that the Corgies out there don't have to maintain their work and still be acceptable examples of the breed? Quite honestly, the fact that GSD's seem to have their own set of rules compared to ALL other breeds either in the specialty ring or the all breed ring has always amazed and amused me. I believe there is only one breed standard for the breed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Are we assuming that the Border Collie doesn't have to be as fit and sturdy as a shepherd? We never said that angelsun and of corse not, but its not up to us shepherd people on how the border collie people want to 'roll'....we do it our way because we thinks it the best way for our breed. I believe there is only one breed standard for the breed? What does showing the 'specialty way' have to do with one breed standard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I agree that ANY dog that is stunning on the stack can fall to bits on the move, however a good judge can see that clearly by the first turn. Specialty shows are about the DOG not about how well the handler can handle. What happens if that one and only gait around the ring wasnt done as its best?......Judging 30++ open dogs requires alot of time and alot of times around the ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firestone Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) Anglesun - Do you compete in the GSD Specialty ring? Yes I have competed in the specialty rings in North America quite a bit. I gave it up a few years back when my back began to act up as I simply can't do the marathon running that these specialty judges seem to feel is needed. (which is another bugaboo of mine as if they can't see in one go round how a dog moves, they aren't going to see it after six go rounds!!) I also don't have the patience for the antics seen at the specialty rings...perhaps I'm getting too old and cranky! I also have never agreed with the condition of some of the dogs often highly rewarded at specialties which included roached toplines, sickle hocks and questionable temperaments.....yes, I am getting too old and cranky! There it is again thats your opinion on toplines and not always right. Questionable are those that are excused at all breeds shows for presenting animals with disqualifying faults like missing teeth. No amount of baiting or double handling will cover bad temp or disqualifying faults no matter what ring you compete in.Double handling is not allowed in the all breeds ring and its only a matter of speaking to the steward and it can be stopped. Throwing bait around the ring is also against the rules as you are not allowed to do anything that impedes or restricts another exhibits chance in the ring. ETA: All our GSDs that are of age have ET titles and passed very easily and they are all well on the way to gaining their HTs in herding. Edited February 12, 2010 by Firestone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BittyMooPeeb Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I do not agree that running a ton around the ring shows if a dog is a better example of the breed..if that were the case we would require shotguns going off over the gundog ring, and whoever didn't bolt, would stay to be judged, we would release rodents to the terriers and those that snatched and grabbed would be eligible for a ribbon, and what about the other herding (pardon me, 'working') breeds that are not judged in the same fashion as the GSD? Are we assuming that the Border Collie doesn't have to be as fit and sturdy as a shepherd? Should we honestly believe that the Corgis out there don't have to maintain their work and still be acceptable examples of the breed? You forgot the sofas and small bowls of finely minced prime steak for the Toy ring :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) Well said Heidii :D GSD set rules no differently to any other breed club, we have our own club, like every other breed club and we will run our shows the way we feel is best for our breed If other GSD Enthusiasts do not wish to participate then thats there decision. Angelsun - If you feel that the GSD's you show in the all breeds ring can compete with those in the specialty shows, if they dont need double handling as you say then I say go ahead , no one is stopping anyone entering Edited February 12, 2010 by Pockets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvawilow Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Angelsun, GSDs are supposed to have endurance. A dog that looks great after one or 2 laps often falls apart after 6 or 7 laps and even the best handlers cant hide it anymore. We use double handling mainly to give a PMU to a dog that is getting a bit tired. You have to be sensible as to when to use double handling and when you should let the dog do his thing by himself. A little bit confused by your opening statement regarding a GSD should have "endurance" but then you go on to say in follwoing paragraph that dbl handling can be used for dog "getting tired". If a dog has endurance then a dozen laps round a ring should make it tired???? Also if it's getting tired does that then mean that it doesn't conform because it doesn't have "endurance", so therefore, if there was no double handling to pep up a tiring dog then those of lesser quality will be seen quicker? I don't mind double handling in the Specality Ring - it's amusing to watch for a couple of minutes of so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Angelsun, GSDs are supposed to have endurance. A dog that looks great after one or 2 laps often falls apart after 6 or 7 laps and even the best handlers cant hide it anymore. We use double handling mainly to give a PMU to a dog that is getting a bit tired. You have to be sensible as to when to use double handling and when you should let the dog do his thing by himself. A little bit confused by your opening statement regarding a GSD should have "endurance" but then you go on to say in follwoing paragraph that dbl handling can be used for dog "getting tired". If a dog has endurance then a dozen laps round a ring should make it tired???? Also if it's getting tired does that then mean that it doesn't conform because it doesn't have "endurance", so therefore, if there was no double handling to pep up a tiring dog then those of lesser quality will be seen quicker? I don't mind double handling in the Specality Ring - it's amusing to watch for a couple of minutes of so! Double handling can be used for a dog that is getting tired/bored or loosing focus :D as stated double handling is an art, it can change from show to show on how much or how little your dog needs, depending on how they feel on the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Danni Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Angelsun, GSDs are supposed to have endurance. A dog that looks great after one or 2 laps often falls apart after 6 or 7 laps and even the best handlers cant hide it anymore. We use double handling mainly to give a PMU to a dog that is getting a bit tired. You have to be sensible as to when to use double handling and when you should let the dog do his thing by himself. A little bit confused by your opening statement regarding a GSD should have "endurance" but then you go on to say in follwoing paragraph that dbl handling can be used for dog "getting tired". If a dog has endurance then a dozen laps round a ring should make it tired???? Also if it's getting tired does that then mean that it doesn't conform because it doesn't have "endurance", so therefore, if there was no double handling to pep up a tiring dog then those of lesser quality will be seen quicker? I don't mind double handling in the Specality Ring - it's amusing to watch for a couple of minutes of so! Sorry that you are confused. You might need to see a specialty show to know what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvawilow Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) Angelsun, GSDs are supposed to have endurance. A dog that looks great after one or 2 laps often falls apart after 6 or 7 laps and even the best handlers cant hide it anymore. We use double handling mainly to give a PMU to a dog that is getting a bit tired. You have to be sensible as to when to use double handling and when you should let the dog do his thing by himself. A little bit confused by your opening statement regarding a GSD should have "endurance" but then you go on to say in follwoing paragraph that dbl handling can be used for dog "getting tired". If a dog has endurance then a dozen laps round a ring should make it tired???? Also if it's getting tired does that then mean that it doesn't conform because it doesn't have "endurance", so therefore, if there was no double handling to pep up a tiring dog then those of lesser quality will be seen quicker? I don't mind double handling in the Specality Ring - it's amusing to watch for a couple of minutes of so! Sorry that you are confused. You might need to see a specialty show to know what I mean. Do I detect a hint of sarcasam? I have watched a GSD spec, that's why I said it's amusing to watch - have also watched them train for it. You contradicted yourself saying that the breed needs enducance and then go on to say about dbl handling for tired dogs - I was wondering how a dog that's tired after a few laps exhibits endurance :D Thanks Pockets for the explanation regarding it being used for bored or unfocused dog eta: I'd love to see our Specality have a few more laps included (I'd probably die, dogs'd be ok, LOL) but without the dbl handling. Edited February 12, 2010 by Silvawilow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Danni Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I agree that ANY dog that is stunning on the stack can fall to bits on the move, however a good judge can see that clearly by the first turn. As for judging on endurance, it's more the handlers than the dogs I think....that was always the running joke during specialties, that who ever kept running the longest was the winner.....I do not agree that running a ton around the ring shows if a dog is a better example of the breed..if that were the case we would require shotguns going off over the gundog ring, and whoever didn't bolt, would stay to be judged, we would release rodents to the terriers and those that snatched and grabbed would be eligible for a ribbon, and what about the other herding (pardon me, 'working') breeds that are not judged in the same fashion as the GSD? Are we assuming that the Border Collie doesn't have to be as fit and sturdy as a shepherd? Should we honestly beleive that the Corgies out there don't have to maintain their work and still be acceptable examples of the breed? Quite honestly, the fact that GSD's seem to have their own set of rules compared to ALL other breeds either in the specialty ring or the all breed ring has always amazed and amused me. I believe there is only one breed standard for the breed? I wasn't talking about how the dog looks on the stack vs gaiting, that's another issue again that you can see pretty much as soon as they move. As to the rest of your post, I think that you are being OTT with your comparisons, but if those breeds decided that's what they need to do, good luck to them. Good to see that you are amused by how GSDs are judged, we like to see our exhibitors happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirst_goldens Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Well said Heidii :D GSD set rules no differently to any other breed club, we have our own club, like every other breed club and we will run our shows the way we feel is best for our breed If other GSD Enthusiasts do not wish to participate then thats there decision. Angelsun - If you feel that the GSD's you show in the all breeds ring can compete with those in the specialty shows, if they dont need double handling as you say then I say go ahead , no one is stopping anyone entering You are quite right nobody is stopping anyone else entering but i can see Angelsuns side of things as well... and anyone else might be put off or annoyed by double handling at this level -so they dont enter... i feel it may be a little unfair that some feel they cant enter (you are very welcoming, but some might need more then a shove to get them in that ring) It would be very intimidating to someone like me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Megz- Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 How about we reign this in and not turn this into a GSD thread as we all know how they end up. Back to the topic at hand of Double handling and not the endurance of the breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 How is it intimidating :D you have a handler in the ring with your dog, you call your dog on the outside... I'm sorry but it's not intimidating at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Megz- Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 How is it intimidating :D you have a handler in the ring with your dog, you call your dog on the outside... I'm sorry but it's not intimidating at all There really is no need to mock someone's opinion by laughing at them. I have seen many GSD Specialties and they are very loud and very intimidating to a newbie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirst_goldens Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 im a newbie... hence intimidation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirst_goldens Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 How is it intimidating you have a handler in the ring with your dog, you call your dog on the outside... I'm sorry but it's not intimidating at all How is it intimidating you have a handler in the ring with your dog, you call your dog on the outside... I'm sorry but it's not intimidating at all There really is no need to mock someone's opinion by laughing at them. I have seen many GSD Specialties and they are very loud and very intimidating to a newbie. and thanks for the sticking up... im only new... :D and IMO it is imtimidating maybe not to yourself and others with yrs of experience and helpers... when me and my friend are showing it is just her and me... and we r both under the age of 23, with no breeders help... we know nobody there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 im a newbie... hence intimidation... Im a newbie to the specialist ring too and love it!......all breeds is BORING and focuses more on the handles rather than the DOGS!! I have not found it intimidating at all, im mean...how can it be?? until people have actually done a specialist shepherd show their view is irrelevant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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