Prydenjoy Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 How can a dog understand something if it isnt told?!?!?...think about it, its an animal, why make it hard for your dog? Wow, I can't believe that someone in an obedience forum would underestimate the intelligence of a dog so much!! Your comments are incredible Dog's are very smart creatures, they need mental stimulation. A 5 minute shaping session is pretty much the equivalent to a half hour walk, it really gets their brains working and is great for rainy days! I don't think you really understand shaping, I suggest you go and buy a book and work out what it is ACTUALLY about, then have another shot at it with your dog, I don't think it is the dog that isn't understanding, a dogs ability to perform is only as good as its owners ability to teach... How is the dog supposed to know what it is supposed to be doing? Well that is where adding what is called a CUE comes into play, you TELL the dog what to do (just as with any other form of obedience), and the dog resonds. Easy peasy. There are plenty of good clicker training books and websites out there, have a look and see ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 Susan Garrett's Shaping Success has lots of good info about shaping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prydenjoy Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I bought the Kay Laurence Learning Games book, but my sister took it to Sydney with her before I got a chance to read it! I've read a few of the Karen Pryor books though, and the Click for Joy book (can't remember the authors name) is great, along with it's email list! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 One of my dogs is very sensitive but super smart so I use free shaping with her and she is very good at Obedience work.. I do as you quoted but I quickly put the behaviour I want on cue, works well for us and have never had any problems, only happy dog and happy handler. The last rewarded behavoiur you will generally get next in free shaping, so I use that to my advantage by getting it on cue. The best thing about free shaping (dogs that like it) is you often get a behaviour that would be very hard to train, all of a sudden it is there, and ready to put on cue. IMO some dogs do get stressed by free shaping, my dogs do not. Mary Ray's dogs are taught through free shaping, they don't look confused or unsure of the job to me. ;) Get this....Sit in front of your dog and think in your head "Ok, i want you to drop" So the dog has been taught to free shape so he does it...he sits....nope, no reward, he shakes hands nope, no reward....he drops, YAY REWARD Next time, you want your dog to sit. so the dog starts freeshaping.....drop, NOPE......bow....NOPE, SIT YAY REWARD The dog is actually not learning a thing, he is only learning to offer different behaviours thats it., he WILL NEVER know what your thinkings, its SIMPLE... your dog cant read your mind BUT If there are props involved then its a different story becuase props are what que the dog on what to do. From what i have said above, your dogs can't learn tricks by freeshaping and they cant learn basic obedience from it either JMO from my own experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prydenjoy Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Not every dog responds to every method. But it makes sense to me that many dogs, especially the smarties, would thrive on this once they understand it? I can't see how it would work with a trick like begging, but then I've never tried that. By rewarding successive approximations. I haven't taught a dog to beg, but Berri does a 360 degree flip that I never would have been able to teach him with any other method of training. It started with a sideways glance, went towards a simple "spin", and now it's a complete leap of the ground, spin right around and lands feet first the way he started, either way depending on which way I ask him to do it. He also walks backwards, speaks, jumps into my arms and even heels sideways, among other things, all as a result of shaping successive approximations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 This is a really shite example of the kind of free shaping I do with Erik when he's bored: This was an easy behaviour from scratch. I call it free shaping because I didn't start with a plan, just clicked the first thing he offered and shaped it into something. He now swipes his paw at pretty much anything you point to and say "paw it". You can see several times I should have clicked and I didn't, and then I clicked for something less than I should have. It's amazing to me how fast it can go even with clumsy clicking. To me, shaping is more of a planned thing, and you might use something to kickstart it. I think that free shaping can be quite stressful, so I don't do much waiting around for something good to click. Kivi doesn't like to offer things spontaneously (maybe he's pessemistic), so I don't do any free shaping with him and only do some shaping if it's something he's naturally good at. Everything else is targeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 A nice, clear example of a session going really well with a "clicker savvy" dog: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubitty Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 A nice, clear example of a session going really well with a "clicker savvy" dog: O. M. G!!!!!!!!!!!! I cannot for the life of me teach bow and would NEVER think the clicker would work since I had no idea how to break it down!!!!!! I am sooooo going to try this!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for posting!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 A nice, clear example of a session going really well with a "clicker savvy" dog: Nice Should teach Zee that one - she bows a lot naturally as it's her favourite stretch and she also bows slightly first when she drops. She is so much better at shaping than Darcy, simply because I understand it more. I didn't even know what shaping was until Darcy was probably 18 months old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prydenjoy Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I love watching a clicker savvy dog at work. I love this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 A nice, clear example of a session going really well with a "clicker savvy" dog: LOL, that was the EXACT video I was thinking of when I started reading this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Cool video! I taught bow by luring but I taught it before I knew how to shape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I love watching a clicker savvy dog at work.I love this one Wow, she has a great way of working her dog! Thanks for posting such great vidoes, guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 One thing I like about the video with the Boxer, even though it's going REALLY well, the trainer has not got too far ahead of the dog and when the dog is offering lesser criterion she keeps on reinforcing - which is correct in my opinion. You keep the criteria at the level where you can maintain a high rate of reinforcement while still moving ahead. Had she waited for too much more behaviour (dog going into full bow) I think things would have broken down pretty quickly. Notice also the initial accidental head-bob that got things started, that is the sort of thing you need to be watching for, just something for those who are new to this to watch out for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I love watching a clicker savvy dog at work.I love this one Field-bred spaniel too! I like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prydenjoy Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 I agree Aiden, if you raise the criteria too quickly the dog gets confused and loses interest. The lady with the spaniel, I love watching her clips. I think she's a really great trainer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 (edited) I love watching Peta work with her boxers. I have spent some time training with her & learnt a lot...especially about reinforcing approximations. Inspired by this, we did some shaping tonight. Trim already has a bow (taught with luring), but Shine doesn't, so we started on that & progress went pretty much the same as the video. LOL, even my husband was impressed. Shine is like Pearl, the dog in the clip, she thinks a lot rather than bouncing around like an idiot. Her default right now is to put her paw over her eye, so that was an easy behaviour to modify into a bow. Next I did a session with Trim...nothing really in mind, just wanted to see what developed. Shine has a high 5, so I thought I'd do that with Trim. It happened straight away, so we moved on to high 10. That happened quickly too, so now we have the beginning of a beg on her haunches. It's going to look very cute when we get it on command. I also did a clicker charging session with Tia. We have done a couple before & she seems to be getting it. Tonight we got a nose touch on a target . I think progress will be slower as she is a lot more easily distracted than my dogs, but it will be an interesting exercise to teach her things. Edited February 15, 2010 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prydenjoy Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 LOL, even my husband was impressed. It's great to see the amazement in other people isn't it! I have a friend and every time he comes over I say "I bet you I can teach Berri to do ... in less than 5 minutes", every time I win and has to shout me dinner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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