Shaping

[JulesP]

So I consider myself too impatient to do shaping. I did teach Poppy retrieve by shaping. I also found that neither Poppy or Brock would offer behaviors, even as little pups. They are very much 'tell us what to do' dogs.

But little Amber was a bit too much into food for luring. Nothing was going in the brain as the 'nom nom nom' thoughts were too strong. Leopuppy suggested shaping so I have been having a go at that. Amber is responding well. You can really see her thinking 'what do you want?'. Very cute.

Is it wrong to combine luring and shaping? ie lure the dog into a drop and then see if they will then offer the behavior. Or do you just have to sit there and wait for things to happen?

[Aidan]

Is it wrong to combine luring and shaping? ie lure the dog into a drop and then see if they will then offer the behavior. Or do you just have to sit there and wait for things to happen?

There's nothing "wrong" with it, if that's how you are most comfortable then go with it. There is something to be said for learning how to become a really good free-operant shaping trainer though, both for dog and handler. You shouldn't be spending too much time sitting there waiting for things to happen, things are always happening but sometimes we wait for too much to happen before we click. Aim to click and treat about every 2-3 seconds in the early stages of shaping a new trick, if you're not able to do that then lower your criteria.

[Bubitty]

Is it wrong to combine luring and shaping? ie lure the dog into a drop and then see if they will then offer the behavior. Or do you just have to sit there and wait for things to happen?

I lure and shape as well! Somethings I just have no idea what to wait for so I just wave a piece of meat and con her into doing what I want. I find though that because I do shape with a lot of other stuff, once I have lured her into a trick, she will store it in her head and bring it out for offering next time we train (if that makes sense!)

But then I'm not a proper trainer! I only do stuff with her because its healthy for her brain!

[The Spotted Devil]

Is it wrong to combine luring and shaping? ie lure the dog into a drop and then see if they will then offer the behavior. Or do you just have to sit there and wait for things to happen?

I lure and shape as well! Somethings I just have no idea what to wait for so I just wave a piece of meat and con her into doing what I want. I find though that because I do shape with a lot of other stuff, once I have lured her into a trick, she will store it in her head and bring it out for offering next time we train (if that makes sense!)

But then I'm not a proper trainer! I only do stuff with her because its healthy for her brain!

And so say all of us, Bub Yes, I like to compete but most of all I love having a delightful dog as a companion - after all a busy Dally is a tired Dally is a good Dally

[Kavik]

I do a lot of shaping but tend not to shape the simple important commands like sit, drop etc and instead lure for those. If training for something where I want those behaviours (eg working on Diesel to drop in PVC box) I did wait it out and shape it, which didn't take long as drop was already in his repertoire of behaviours that are rewarded.

I think luring and then seeing if they will offer the behaviour without the lure is one way of weaning off the lure, so sounds fine to me!

[JulesP]

This is for basic obedience not tricks btw.

[corvus]

You do what you have to to get the reward coming thick and fast.

[Prydenjoy]

It certainly gets much faster results. I was purely shaping Berri's behavior for a while, but then when I worked out ways to speed the process up (eg luring) I got hooked on that. The end result is the same, you just don't spend so much time in the initial stages of teaching each "trick" (after all, any obedience is a trick to the dog really).

I love watching Kikopup on youtube, she has a way of breaking things down and making things faster and easier. I taught Berri a pivot using her techniques in a day, it would have taken me ages if I'd tried pure shaping!

Luring really gives the dog a cue as to what you are asking for next, it reduces frustration between dog and handler and that is a plus in my eyes.

[~*Shell*~]

I use both - that's how I taught Zero to return to heel which he just couldn't get his fluffy brain around for months (or more like, I couldn't get my squishy brain into gear to find a way to effectively teach it to him! ). I had easily taught him to go around the back but for a bigger dog without a graceful bone in his body, the tight turn required when returning to heel without walking around me was a big stretch. It's still not the most graceful of maneuvers but he can do it. I mostly use the clicker to train tricks, though I also taught Zero to do a formal retrieve with it. While I do use free shaping, I find that a combination of luring and shaping really works for us.

[Heidii]

So I consider myself too impatient to do shaping. I did teach Poppy retrieve by shaping. I also found that neither Poppy or Brock would offer behaviors, even as little pups. They are very much 'tell us what to do' dogs.

But little Amber was a bit too much into food for luring. Nothing was going in the brain as the 'nom nom nom' thoughts were too strong. Leopuppy suggested shaping so I have been having a go at that. Amber is responding well. You can really see her thinking 'what do you want?'. Very cute.

Is it wrong to combine luring and shaping? ie lure the dog into a drop and then see if they will then offer the behavior. Or do you just have to sit there and wait for things to happen?

I really dont understand why you would try shaping especially for obedience....How can a dog understand something if it isnt told?!?!?...think about it, its an animal, why make it hard for your dog?

I have done shaping and found it only to work well for teaching weaves, however for anthing else, including obedience or tricks my dog was EXTREMELY confused....he ended up so confused that i had to reteach him basic stuff!! I would ask him to "sit" and he would drop, then bow or try and shake hands etc....he ended up not actually listening to me but offering everything he ever learnt until he recieved the treat.

"You can really see her thinking 'what do you want?'. Very cute. "

Exactly, how is the dog to know what you want? in the end you will have a dog offering everything he knows!

[Kavik]

I've actually found that dogs are pretty good at figuring out what pays and don't tend to offer every behaviour once they have figured out what you want for that exercise. You just ignore the responses you don't want or restart the exercise. Especially when there is a prop involved (any sort of object) they quickly remember what you want with each prop. Diesel knows to drop in the PVC box, and nose touch the raised target and my hand. I didn't start with drop in the box of course, started with investigating box, then putting a foot in the box etc.

Kaos knows pounce on the mat/foot target,nose touch my hand, nose touch raised target, pounce in the PVC box.

Zoe used to do her repertoire when shaping but does not do that anymore. She was the first dog I shaped with and I only started shaping with her when she was older, so it took her longer to start offering behaviours in the first place.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Kavik

[megan_]

I really dont understand why you would try shaping especially for obedience....How can a dog understand something if it isnt told?!?!?...think about it, its an animal, why make it hard for your dog?

The aim is to get your dog thinking and problem solving. He offers up a behaviour. No reward. Try something else etc. I don't use it for obedience (I don't compete) but for getting my dogs to use their brains and get some mental exercise. At the Uta Bindel seminar, she said to start on really easy things, no corrections (just a NRM) and give them time to try things out.

The seminar was really useful in getting the theory and practice right - I wouldn't have like dto try it without getting that grounding first.

I believe that many obedience dogs struggle at first because they are waiting to be told what to do. This was certainly true at the seminar. The BC's sat and waited for instructions, my low-level trained mutt worked it out pretty quickly. She said that it defintely worked better with puppies, which makes sense.

JulesP - I think it depends on the dog. Uta recommended not to lure as the dog isn't thinking, it is just following its nose. I don't lure with my boy but I have to keep sessions very short (a few minutes max) because if he isn't getting rewarded he get frustrated too easily.

[Heidii]

I really dont understand why you would try shaping especially for obedience....How can a dog understand something if it isnt told?!?!?...think about it, its an animal, why make it hard for your dog?

The aim is to get your dog thinking and problem solving. He offers up a behaviour. No reward. Try something else etc.

Yes i understand the theory BUT if you want your dog to sit and you dont tell him and he doesnt know what you actually want so he starts offering behaviours I dont see how that is teaching him anything?....He will NEVER learn because you never tell him what you want...he always have to offer. I do understand though with having props like Kavik mention, i get that, but with tricks and even basic obedience i find it doesnt work. I found it worked with weaving because weaves where in front of him and he really couldnt offer different behaviours....the weavepoles were his que

Edited February 12, 2010 by Heidii

[Heidii]

Get this....

Sit in front of your dog and think in your head "Ok, i want you to drop"

So the dog has been taught to free shape so he does it...he sits....nope, no reward, he shakes hands nope, no reward....he drops, YAY REWARD

Next time, you want your dog to sit.

so the dog starts freeshaping.....drop, NOPE......bow....NOPE, SIT YAY REWARD

The dog is actually not learning a thing, he is only learning to offer different behaviours thats it., he WILL NEVER know what your thinkings, its SIMPLE... your dog cant read your mind

BUT

If there are props involved then its a different story becuase props are what que the dog on what to do.

From what i have said above, your dogs can't learn tricks by freeshaping and they cant learn basic obedience from it either

JMO from my own experience

Edited February 12, 2010 by Heidii

[Kavik]

IMO you have to give some sort of clue to the dog what you want - even if that is only standing a certain way/certain posture. Eg you could stand legs slightly apart, hands together in front of you for your dog to give you a front position. Or stand feet together and one hand on hip for the dog to give you heel position. Or put the dog in a narrow hallway to get it to go backwards.

If you do it only randomly then I agree Heidii it only confuses the dog, but if you give it context you can shape it.

[megan_]

You should tell that to Uta, 5 times Obedeince World Champion! And you should tell my pup that he doesn't know how to clean the floor with a rag, becasue I taught him taht free shaping too :D (apologies if that comes across sounding really smug, I don't mean it to be).

Using your example below. you want to teach your dog to drop (I've esplained it it one session here, but it can be as many as it takes).

i) He offers up behaviour, you click for getting close to drop first (eg bowing). Eventually he drops. Click. Big reward.

I then play, go for a little walk.

ii) He offers drop pretty quickly. As he's about to drop, add the word. Click. Treat. Little break

iii) Repeat step ii) a few times. Now you can stop free shaping and he knows drop.

iv) End of session. Go home

Now you want to teach sit.

i) Chances are, he'll drop first. He will look at you when he doesn't get a click. My boy then does the move again in a very exaggerated manner to show me he did DROP. As soon as he starts to get up, click and treat.

ii) Repeat as necessary. Soon he cottons on that this has nothing to do with drop, he offers up different behaviours. Repeat as per the drop sequence.

Not every dog responds to every method. But it makes sense to me that many dogs, especially the smarties, would thrive on this once they understand it? I can't see how it would work with a trick like begging, but then I've never tried that.

[Aidan]

From what i have said above, your dogs can't learn tricks by freeshaping and they cant learn basic obedience from it either

Yet thousands do... why is that?

In "free-operant shaping" you reinforce successive approximations. You don't wait for the dog to sit. You reinforce the little steps along the way, often tiny little things. It does require a shift in thinking and I think for many people, some good instruction. It's not for everyone, and it's not for teaching just a couple of things with, it becomes more efficient with use.

[The Spotted Devil]

From what i have said above, your dogs can't learn tricks by freeshaping and they cant learn basic obedience from it either

Yet thousands do... why is that?

In "free-operant shaping" you reinforce successive approximations. You don't wait for the dog to sit. You reinforce the little steps along the way, often tiny little things. It does require a shift in thinking and I think for many people, some good instruction. It's not for everyone, and it's not for teaching just a couple of things with, it becomes more efficient with use.

To take it further...

I free shaped a formal retrieve with my Dally who barely looked at a retrieve item and if he did it was with complete ambivalence. His retrieve is a hoot now - he sprints out and sprints back with a madly wagging tail and huge enthusiasm. For a dog that doesn't tolerate much other than a "what's in it for me approach" it's been a huge success. I also taught the basics of the send away, with just a smidge of luring. As for a dog offering a behaviour constantly it's all about how you train and what your criteria is - once you've trained something to a solid level you add the cue and then only reward if you have asked for the behaviour. Dogs are pretty darned smart

[Tassie]

With my previous boy, who like TSD's dog, wouldn't look at a retrieve item, and didn't carry things in his mouth, I had a lot of success using Shirley Chong's method Shirley Chong's retrieve method. It shows well what Aidan was talking about with successive approximations.

[JulesP]

Heidi I needed to try something different as luring was a problem. Amber was soooo into that chicken that whilst she was sitting and dropping as I lured her I didn't think it was sinking into her little brain as her brain was filled with 'nom, chicken, givemechicken, nom, nom'. She was going pretty nuts.

Since then I have lured a new thing once and then have waited for her to offer that behaviour again. Once they work out the game they do seem to offer behaviours. Well Amber is. I can see her thinking now rather than just going nuts for the food. If the dog offers other behaviours after the correct one then I would suggest that they aren't being clicked and treated quick enough.

The 'its your choice' game is great too That really helped. I learn't it at the Greg D clinic but all my dogs already had good stays so I didn't really get its worth but with a fresh pup - wow!