persephone Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 you mean those Guide dog trainers are being targeted here? Oh,No! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 (edited) Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put an evil spin on this to somehow make everyone agree with me (as if they ever would!), but offering an alternate view. I'm not trying to convince anyone. It's a bouncing board thingy. You paint your rosy picture, I paint my gloomy one and we bounce back until we find the truth of it. There's one problem with this. The people you want to constantly argue with do what they do BECAUSE IT WORKS for them. Don't you get it? Not everyone needs to find the truth of it...many people have already found the truth THROUGH ACTUALLY DOING IT! If you were achieving more than the people you want to argue with, then maybe you would gain more credibility... Geez, you guys are too smart for me. What can I say, it's been boring around here lately with not enough people telling me I'm mad/stupid/inexperienced/setting my dogs up for dangerous failure/clueless about training/have failed to notice that dogs are dogs and not any other animal. I just can't get enough of it. For all my reward-based training obsession I guess I must be a glutton for punishment. Surely you can understand these reactions from people? The thing I just don't get is that if you are so desperate to prove your theories, why do you do so little practical? Isn't that a large part of your scientific world? to experiment & test your theories? don't you need a bigger sample series than 2 dogs & a hare? There are so many avenues for you to pursue to test all your theories that would have to be far more rewarding than starting posts like this all the time. Wouldn't it be a far more worthwhile exercise to volunteer at a local pound & observe & test all that the animals have to offer? or join a club & train your dogs to a high level at something & move on to instructing & helping others achieve that high level? I've got to stop reading (and responding to) these threads, they are doing my head in. Edited February 10, 2010 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Hey corvus - come to watch the Waratah Club training. Usually Mondays 7.30 Horsley Park showgrounds We will be ther on Friday too this week, there will be a visitor there - a dog trainer for military police - ask him how high drive dogs are trained, what do they look for to determine if the dog is in drive and what do they do if the dog misbehaves. And you will see few pets that are being trained to compete, there will be obedieecne done in drive, drive development, etc. All in one big lesson of observation for you. But wait - it was you that said that there are no talented/good trainers in Sydney, right??? So perhaps to you it will be a pharse, who knows..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 there will be a visitor there - a dog trainer for military police - That would be very interesting! Lucky you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Seen him and spoke to him many times, novelty wore off for me but he is a nice guy so will be good to catch up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Hey corvus - come to watch the Waratah Club training.Usually Mondays 7.30 Horsley Park showgrounds We will be ther on Friday too this week, there will be a visitor there - a dog trainer for military police - ask him how high drive dogs are trained, what do they look for to determine if the dog is in drive and what do they do if the dog misbehaves. And you will see few pets that are being trained to compete, there will be obedieecne done in drive, drive development, etc. All in one big lesson of observation for you. But wait - it was you that said that there are no talented/good trainers in Sydney, right??? So perhaps to you it will be a pharse, who knows..... Why does it have to be Friday? I have agility on Friday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Ill ask him to come to training again if you want Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Cool Have I met him before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 I dont know, but I dont think so. And Im not 100% sure if he will come, this is the info I got, and I hope its true, Ill try to contact him directly to confirm, maybe even get him to come on regular basis, he used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 I'm not sure if it will be obvious why this is relevant to the discussion at hand, Corvus, but you might appreciate this article by Bob Bailey: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002b/attention.htm The scenario you have raised is an "establishing operation" and it may help you to look at it in that context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 C: I guess I've never paid much attention to time before distance before distraction. I've taught new behaviours from scratch in the dog park or out walking. K9: It makes it easier on the dog to gain reward by setting an environment that doesnt distract the dog (from reward). So by teaching in a distraction free environment, it makes for less stress on the dog, you know, I do this so I dont ruin soft dogs... Aw, you've missed my point. If you practice things heaps in distracting environments they stop being distracting. It's not like I dumped a puppy in the park and expected them to learn a formal heel right then and there. It's just adding dog parks to the list of places where training may occur. Kivi is really cute about it. He takes a break from running around and comes over to either sit patiently in front of me or OH or glue himself to someone's left leg in the hopes that someone will do some training with him. C: Occasionally they give me a blank look and I figure we need some more practice at home K9: What happens then? they arent given the reward I guess. I am sure that works (for you) but I find setting the dog up to win a much fairer system. Especially on soft, easy ruined dogs. Ask 'em something easy and reward. Or I use a Least Reinforcing Scenario. Or both! They seem to like the both best. I don't use LRSs much, but I've decided there's a time and place for them, and it's often when I've made a mistake. K9: correct, but I think this one was being aimed a little closer than Police departments etc. What do I care what police departments do? They all work with GSDs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 K9: It makes it easier on the dog to gain reward by setting an environment that doesnt distract the dog (from reward). So by teaching in a distraction free environment, it makes for less stress on the dog, you know, I do this so I dont ruin soft dogs...C: Aw, you've missed my point. K9: Maybe it would help if you PMd me your "point" rather than PMing others your points about me? If you practice things heaps in distracting environments they stop being distracting. K9: How do you know? If responding to the distraction is either physically rewarding or chemically rewarding, it wont stop. It's not like I dumped a puppy in the park and expected them to learn a formal heel right then and there. It's just adding dog parks to the list of places where training may occur. K9: If the exercise has been trained previously & the dog park was not outside of the dogs mental capacity to work under, thats fine, it just isnt the place to teach dogs that are distracted by the park. Kivi is really cute about it. He takes a break from running around and comes over to either sit patiently in front of me or OH or glue himself to someone's left leg in the hopes that someone will do some training with him. K9: So he has taught you to wait until he is ready to take a break from what he really wants to do. Nice work that is cute. C: Occasionally they give me a blank look and I figure we need some more practice at homeK9: What happens then? they arent given the reward I guess. I am sure that works (for you) but I find setting the dog up to win a much fairer system. Especially on soft, easy ruined dogs. C :Ask 'em something easy and reward. Or I use a Least Reinforcing Scenario. Or both! They seem to like the both best. I don't use LRSs much, but I've decided there's a time and place for them, and it's often when I've made a mistake. K9: So the dog learns that the first command you gave doesnt need to be complied with, because you will give it something easier to do & the dog can access the reward that way. K9: correct, but I think this one was being aimed a little closer than Police departments etc.What do I care what police departments do? They all work with GSDs! K9: wrong again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purpley Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Corvus - you obviously dislike Steve and his principles, fair enough. Not everyone agrees nor gets along, but being negative and trying to rebutt everything he says isn't going to help you. I train my dogs at 2 different clubs and whilst I don't agree with everything at either one, I take away the things that will work for me and combine both of them. Your mind seems to be closed to everything besides your own ideas - this is not a great learning practice. I attended Steve's seminar in Melb and enjoyed it and learnt alot - did I end up doing drive training with my dog - NO. Why, because it is something that you need to be fully committed to and understand completely. I didn't have the time to put it fully into practice (4 kids) and I didn't quite get my head around it completely. I did however take away an amount of things to put into practice that wasn't just drive stuff, and I believe this has helped my relationships with my dogs. Having said that, I have seen the radical change in Shoemonster's, Eddie. To me he is a completely different dog, for the better and that is owed to all the work that Shoemonster has put in and the ongoing support she has had from Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 (edited) If you practice things heaps in distracting environments they stop being distracting. K9: How do you know? If responding to the distraction is either physically rewarding or chemically rewarding, it wont stop. Because I tried it. And it can and does stop. I know, because I tried it, and it did. How about that! Have you read Control Unleashed? C :Ask 'em something easy and reward. Or I use a Least Reinforcing Scenario. Or both! They seem to like the both best. I don't use LRSs much, but I've decided there's a time and place for them, and it's often when I've made a mistake. K9: So the dog learns that the first command you gave doesnt need to be complied with, because you will give it something easier to do & the dog can access the reward that way. It's funny you should say that. I used to think that way. Then I adjusted my thinking because I discovered I was wrong about 99% of it. The other 1% is a whole range of possibilities. I get the sense you want me to PM you. I believe you have a PM button as well. Believe it or not, this thread ain't about you. Like MonElite said, it's hardly a new idea. I was vaguely curious how many people who trained in drive actually did the isolation thing and why. And, naturally, I have an opinion on it as well. My opinion on any form of manipulative isolation has been the same for some time, now. If you want to claim this one as your own, then go ahead, but don't try to make it into something personal between you and The Evil Scientist or something. I'm kinda flattered that I even register on your radar, let alone provoke some casual abuse. Thanks to those who actually answered the question. I've got all I wanted out of this thread. Edited to fix quotes. Edited February 10, 2010 by corvus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Corvus- if you train in a distracting environment, lets say with an occassional dog or rabbit zooming by and the dog engages with either, are you saying the environment will still become less distracting with more repetitions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 K9: How do you know? If responding to the distraction is either physically rewarding or chemically rewarding, it wont stop. Because I tried it. And it can and does stop. I know, because I tried it, and it did. How about that! Have you read Control Unleashed? K9: I suppose you think it did work, that will be because we differ in what the terms, reliable, proofed, distraction & trained mean. If you show a dog a distraction that triggers drive, & you just keep turning up to that environment, even though you dont let the dog engage the trigger, the dogs frustration for that drive trigger will increase, the distraction will become more distracting not less distracting, thats not from a theoretical point of view, thats from actual fact. C :Ask 'em something easy and reward. Or I use a Least Reinforcing Scenario. Or both! They seem to like the both best. I don't use LRSs much, but I've decided there's a time and place for them, and it's often when I've made a mistake. K9: So the dog learns that the first command you gave doesnt need to be complied with, because you will give it something easier to do & the dog can access the reward that way. It's funny you should say that. I used to think that way. Then I adjusted my thinking because I discovered I was wrong about 99% of it. The other 1% is a whole range of possibilities. K9: I know a guy that thought that he could beat his dog with a stock whip to get it to behave, he just as much you do do today, believed he was right. His dog & everyone around him didnt, thats the key point of difference. I get the sense you want me to PM you. K9: No you dont, your well aware of what I am talking about. I believe you have a PM button as well. K9: Rarely used, in the many years I have been here, I have emptied the box less than twice. If I want to say something, I say it. Believe it or not, this thread ain't about you. Like MonElite said, it's hardly a new idea. K9: If you check my postings you will see I have said that a number of times. I was vaguely curious how many people who trained in drive actually did the isolation thing and why. And, naturally, I have an opinion on it as well. My opinion on any form of manipulative isolation has been the same for some time, now. If you want to claim this one as your own, then go ahead, but don't try to make it into something personal between you and The Evil Scientist or something. K9: I have never made anything personal, you will have to look elsewhere for that. I'm kinda flattered that I even register on your radar, let alone provoke some casual abuse. K9: Hard to miss you on my radar, you hit near every thread here with your "views". I havent abused you at all, it will be clear if I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 in my really simple simple way of training i like to give my dog the best chance of success cause i like her and i want her to be happy so i train where she has the best chance of success, in a low distraction environment...she gets things right a lot more this way.....then when she has it down pat i try in a more challenging place. i also like to control the environment..the thought of training my dog in a park is horrifying to me...how can i stop wandering dogs interupting me and her and teaching her bad habits oh well each to their own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 I was vaguely curious how many people who trained in drive actually did the isolation thing and why. People that are serious about competitions do it often. As often as they choose a dog with right temperament for what they want, and as often as they train their chosen way. Pet owners -nah they go to a dog park and let the dogs mingle. Does this satisfy your vague curiosity? If you want statistical data, why dont you run a poll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 (edited) Why would I want to train in an environment where I knew there was a reasonable chance to fail? Makes sense to me to get it right (and when using drive, I mean "addicted") and gradually increase the distractions and their intensity. I see that as setting the dog up to win rather than to fail and it means I'm not setting up learnt behaviours that I then have to work against (which is hardly the best thing for the dog even though I might have had to do it) to overcome the unreliability that I would have cultivated. I use this philosophy not only with my own dog but also with the hundreds that I have worked with over the years. It is important that my dog works for me (but enthusiastically) and not me for him. In the latter case, control is lost and that's a big part of the problem with many off-lead dogs these days. What I really love about drive work is that it really develops that team-manship. If I put my dog in a situation where there was a good probability of failure, then I'm letting the team down, IMO. ETA: OT .... I know some use the word, but I hate the word "drivey". Probably just a 'me' thing. Thought I'd share it, though . Edited February 10, 2010 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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