Steve K9Pro Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 K9 while you're around, can i ask a quick naive question about building drive - does it have to be with the same toy or tug each time? Pete seems just as happy to play with anything I decide to use, e.g. head on a rope or a teddy bear.. Does it add confusion, or not make a difference? Thanks K9: The true answer is that it depends, working with live animals takes some of the prediction ability out but, I always start with one toy & only use that until I have drive built, many times first 4 weeks, sometimes more, sometimes less. Then I make it a point to vary the toys between a number of prey items that I consider to be safe for the dog. I dont like to develop drive with various toys at the start because I have seen a few dogs stop after teh trigger phrase & try & guess which toy is coming, it is a step "I" prefer not to have to train out. Does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 If i was going to compete with my dogs- i would definitely have to do some kind of containment/ reducing outside stimuli for one of my dogs (Cosmo) to have her working at her best. She would be a super working dog if she was kennelled (and i had to test that at one point and was quite right) but as a house/companion dog, this seriously reduces her desire for training. On the other hand, one of my other dogs has a much lower threshold to drive than Cosmo so i don't think it would make that much of a difference with him- even if it would it wouldn't be necesary- Dexter really doesn't need any more drive, desire or enthusiasm- he has it in spades and i think more would make his brain explode!! I don't think its a problem to do when the dog is receiving the training with it- you can create a satisfied happy dog without leaving the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Ok- I am way out of the loop here- and am not used to the terminology - so forgive me- When training Guide dogs, which is where I did most of my dog work. ... dogs were spending a lot of time in a concrete kennel- no way of seeing the outside world, etc. They were of course in large open runs for toilet and play opportunities, but mostly in a kennel... THEN they were taken out for training. No actual training was done in the kennel environment- it was all out & about..starting with very quiet and simple environments, with tasks to suit. Their 'drive', I am supposing was fuelled by the desire to be out, to be somewhere stimulating... As time went by, so did their keenness increase..and when the harness bodypiece was introduced, most leapt at the chance to be allowed to 'pull' a bit, and to start really 'working' Is this sort of the idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Another thought- sometimes we had nice young dogs, perfectly tractable and willing to learn, to walk nicely..... but just without the bit of 'Oomph' needed. What I found to be moist helpful in some of these cases, was to let the dog carry something- usually rolled up junkmail Their whole demeanour would change- they would lean into the harness, tail would be up, and they would be a happy and confident 'working dog'! We would wean them off the junkmail , once they realised that working well was a good thing It did look amusing, I must admit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Ok- I am way out of the loop here- and am not used to the terminology - so forgive me-When training Guide dogs, which is where I did most of my dog work. ... dogs were spending a lot of time in a concrete kennel- no way of seeing the outside world, etc. They were of course in large open runs for toilet and play opportunities, but mostly in a kennel... THEN they were taken out for training. No actual training was done in the kennel environment- it was all out & about..starting with very quiet and simple environments, with tasks to suit. Their 'drive', I am supposing was fuelled by the desire to be out, to be somewhere stimulating... As time went by, so did their keenness increase..and when the harness bodypiece was introduced, most leapt at the chance to be allowed to 'pull' a bit, and to start really 'working' Is this sort of the idea? K9: Thats a very similar principle yep, how did that work for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 how did that work for you? That worked very well! Dogs were keen to get out and to work. It also showed us the dogs in all their moods... the ones who were anxious in kennels, the ones to whom a change of scenery was THE best thing, the ones who very quickly adapted to the routine... It's a learning thing- the brain is continually seeking stimulation, and so the individual will do whatever it takes to gain that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 how did that work for you? That worked very well! Dogs were keen to get out and to work. It also showed us the dogs in all their moods... the ones who were anxious in kennels, the ones to whom a change of scenery was THE best thing, the ones who very quickly adapted to the routine... It's a learning thing- the brain is continually seeking stimulation, and so the individual will do whatever it takes to gain that K9: Uh huh, thats my belief too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete.the.dog Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 K9 while you're around, can i ask a quick naive question about building drive - does it have to be with the same toy or tug each time? Pete seems just as happy to play with anything I decide to use, e.g. head on a rope or a teddy bear.. Does it add confusion, or not make a difference? Thanks K9: The true answer is that it depends, working with live animals takes some of the prediction ability out but, I always start with one toy & only use that until I have drive built, many times first 4 weeks, sometimes more, sometimes less. Then I make it a point to vary the toys between a number of prey items that I consider to be safe for the dog. I dont like to develop drive with various toys at the start because I have seen a few dogs stop after teh trigger phrase & try & guess which toy is coming, it is a step "I" prefer not to have to train out. Does that make sense? Yes thank you that does make sense! You just confirmed what I thought - that I need to pull my socks up and get onto the people Erny suggested for the tugs and stop just using toys before you come to Adelaide! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 K9 while you're around, can i ask a quick naive question about building drive - does it have to be with the same toy or tug each time? Pete seems just as happy to play with anything I decide to use, e.g. head on a rope or a teddy bear.. Does it add confusion, or not make a difference? Thanks K9: The true answer is that it depends, working with live animals takes some of the prediction ability out but, I always start with one toy & only use that until I have drive built, many times first 4 weeks, sometimes more, sometimes less. Then I make it a point to vary the toys between a number of prey items that I consider to be safe for the dog. I dont like to develop drive with various toys at the start because I have seen a few dogs stop after teh trigger phrase & try & guess which toy is coming, it is a step "I" prefer not to have to train out. Does that make sense? Yes thank you that does make sense! You just confirmed what I thought - that I need to pull my socks up and get onto the people Erny suggested for the tugs and stop just using toys before you come to Adelaide! K9: Just so you know, we stock a full range of tug toys, we just havent got them listed yet, wont be long though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 (edited) K9: Just so you know, we stock a full range of tug toys, we just havent got them listed yet, wont be long though. Still waiting for that big announcement, Steve Edited February 10, 2010 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 K9: It will be before your eyes, before you know it! Keep your "eyes peeled", not your breath held. lol Wont be long now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Seeing as we are talking early development here and K9 Force is around, can I ask a couple of questions? What age would you start drive work K9 Force? I have a new pup that looks like she will like toys but I have managed to make the other borders too well behaved (will not take tug off Mummy). Any tips on avoiding this with this pup? She has a different nature so it might not be an issue anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Separating the dog from the outside stimuli while building drive is not a new concept, when you think of the police dogs - this is exactly how they are trained - they spend days in kennels, and are being taken out only for training.For an owner that potentially wants to train in drive and lets say compete with his/hers dog that could do with more drive, it might be the way to go, but I personally dont see a need for it if the dog is VERY drivey. If the dog genetically has plenty of drive then there is no real reason to build it up right? I actually can see how it can still be good. Say you have a dog that is drivey but chooses to satisfy this drive in a way that you don't want. I can see how separating even a very drivey dog from outside stimuli can help with focus in drive training, ie you would be building drive and focus on you for a particular object rather than something else. No point if even your driviest dog is wasting it on, say, chasing rabbits. I think we both mean the same thing, you jsut said it better I guess what I meant was - if the dog has plenty of drive there is not need to BULD MORE. The drive thats there can and should be appropriatelly directed, and a total separation is not needed for that, well JMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Seeing as we are talking early development here and K9 Force is around, can I ask a couple of questions? What age would you start drive work K9 Force? K9: The minute I meet the pup or dog. I have a new pup that looks like she will like toys but I have managed to make the other borders too well behaved (will not take tug off Mummy). Any tips on avoiding this with this pup? She has a different nature so it might not be an issue anyway. K9: Dont enforce any real rules until you have the "rules of engagement" set between you & your pup, then you should have success. Many "good" training programs that create a well behaved dog will teach the dog not to display drive (raise drive thresholds). There is nothing wrong with these programs in most cases either, we use them sometimes here under the right circumstances, just not good for dogs that you want to use natural desire (drive) for in all cases. Sorry lots of disclaimers there (in most cases etc) but you have to these days when every word one says is redirected by some. Training in drive is a natural way of letting the dogs genetics help you achieve your goals, rather than working against them, so it takes a different approach to ensure that we dont deminish that in any way or in any way make the dog feel that drive is not appropriate, if you do that, your one step ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete.the.dog Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 K9: Just so you know, we stock a full range of tug toys, we just havent got them listed yet, wont be long though. Are you bringing them down to Adelaide? Maybe it would be best for me to wait until after your seminar and then start again with a proper tug toy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 K9: It will be before your eyes, before you know it! Keep your "eyes peeled", not your breath held. lolWont be long now... Will keep my eye site open Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 K9: Just so you know, we stock a full range of tug toys, we just havent got them listed yet, wont be long though. Are you bringing them down to Adelaide? Maybe it would be best for me to wait until after your seminar and then start again with a proper tug toy K9: I think I will be bringing some, havent thought that far ahead as yet, we have pics etc if you email use can can guide you through the right selection process, or as you said you can see them when I am in SA. Either way suits me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 I was thinking the same thing, or just that Corvus really really wants to find a way to get everyone to agree that Steve's drive training is "bad" Considering corvus has no idea about "Steves" method, is she putting "training in drive" down? Any training in drive, by any trainer, by any organisation? M: Separating the dog from the outside stimuli while building drive is not a new concept, when you think of the police dogs - this is exactly how they are trained - they spend days in kennels, and are being taken out only for training. K9: correct, but I think this one was being aimed a little closer than Police departments etc. You mean those Guide dog trainers are being targeted here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 From what I understand the kenneling of a dog, crating, removing toys or not walking the dog is to create a desire in the dog for learning. Making training the most exciting and stimulating part of it's day. Some trainers recommend a quiet time prior to training such as being in the crate or tied up or even in a down stay. I believe it's a method often used for detector dogs as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Thanks Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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