Early Drive Building Question

[corvus]

I recently heard that while building drive in dogs initially you should isolate them. As in, don't take them for walks, even. Does anyone do that? Why/why not?

I don't really get why you would do that. I'm pretty confident my dogs would both be climbing the walls if they were isolated in their yard/house for just a week. I went out of my way to get Erik playing tug in all sorts of places quite early on. I can't really imagine how that would possibly cause problems later on. I do heaps of training in the dog park because my reasoning is you may as well get them used to listening to you in highly distracting surroundings asap. Maybe I'm on a totally weird wavelength or something (as usual)?

[huski]

My understanding is that it's like just about any training you do, you start in low distraction environments and work your way up as your dog improves. I get my dogs working well and understand what I want in low distraction environments like my home, and then as they give me the standard I am happy with, I slowly transfer it to other areas. Time before distance before distraction.

ETA: When it comes to building drive I did nothing with Daisy apart from drive building in the early stages (no walks or training at any other time etc) because it helped build her frustration and eagerness. If a dog has heaps of drive already, it's not as necessary, because you don't have to build it so much. It's about getting the dog addicted to drive training, it's not just keeping them confined to the house and doing nothing with them - you are doing heaps with them you are just giving them another outlet for their energy.

Edited February 9, 2010 by huski

[BC4ME]

Corvus :Maybe I'm on a totally weird wavelength or something (as usual)?

;) You said it not me

Huski: Time before distance before distraction.

The golden rule of behaviour....

[corvus]

When it comes to building drive I did nothing with Daisy apart from drive building in the early stages (no walks or training at any other time etc) because it helped build her frustration and eagerness.

Could you further explain that reasoning? Are you saying her frustration and eagerness were building because you deprived her of anything else interesting in the world and so thus became the world to her?

I guess I've never paid much attention to time before distance before distraction. I've taught new behaviours from scratch in the dog park or out walking. I practice things that are far from perfect in the dog park, too. Why shouldn't I? Occasionally they give me a blank look and I figure we need some more practice at home, but realistically, they start doing it in the park, around the house, out walking around the block on leash as soon as they have a cue for it. I fade the home only training as fast as I fade a lure!

[Kavik]

Yes I was told this in K9 Force seminars. No I don't do it. May get better results with tug if I did but the walks are for my sanity as well

Edited February 9, 2010 by Kavik

[shoemonster]

When you are doing drive exercises 3+ times a day and the dog is putting in maximum effort you dont want them exerting energy somewhere else as well, or you wont get maximum results, so as much as its about you becoming their world (which you are anyway as you control the walks) its about preserving energy as well so they can give it their all

Its hardly depriving them when they are spending so much time training with you, in such a highly rewarding way

Edited February 9, 2010 by shoemonster

[huski]

When it comes to building drive I did nothing with Daisy apart from drive building in the early stages (no walks or training at any other time etc) because it helped build her frustration and eagerness.

Could you further explain that reasoning? Are you saying her frustration and eagerness were building because you deprived her of anything else interesting in the world and so thus became the world to her?

I didn't deprive her of everything that is interesting in the world, I just stopped walking her so I could harness all the energy I could in training. I didn't take her out or train her at any other time. This worked in favour of our training, because it meant she had tonnes of energy for me to use.

Are you looking for an argument, Corvus, or are you using this thread to bait someone? Feels like the latter to me

I guess I've never paid much attention to time before distance before distraction. I've taught new behaviours from scratch in the dog park or out walking. I practice things that are far from perfect in the dog park, too. Why shouldn't I? Occasionally they give me a blank look and I figure we need some more practice at home, but realistically, they start doing it in the park, around the house, out walking around the block on leash as soon as they have a cue for it. I fade the home only training as fast as I fade a lure!

Each to their own obviously but I like to set my dogs up to win, when I am first training something I like to make it as easy for them as possible to learn what I want. I take the training I've done out and about when my dogs have a cue for it too, that's not what I was talking about when I said I train new behaviours at home before adding distractions.

[huski]

When you are doing drive exercises 3+ times a day and the dog is putting in maximum effort you dont want them exerting energy somewhere else as well, or you wont get maximum results, so as much as its about you becoming their world (which you are anyway as you control the walks) its about preserving energy as well so they can give it their all

Its hardly depriving them when they are spending so much time training with you, in such a highly rewarding way

You said what I was trying to but couldn't put as succinctly

[shoemonster]

Are you looking for an argument, Corvus, or are you using this thread to bait someone? Feels like the latter to me

I was thinking the same thing, or just that Corvus really really wants to find a way to get everyone to agree that Steve's drive training is "bad"

[huski]

Are you looking for an argument, Corvus, or are you using this thread to bait someone? Feels like the latter to me

I was thinking the same thing, or just that Corvus really really wants to find a way to get everyone to agree that Steve's drive training is "bad"

It would hardly be the first time.

Edited February 9, 2010 by huski

[BC4ME]

Corvus : I practice things that are far from perfect in the dog park, too. Why shouldn't I?

Because PRACTISE MAKES PERMANENT

[JulesP]

You want to be the source of all fun and satisfaction for your dog that is why you isolate them. I personally wouldn't do this but I don't encourage my dogs to play with strange dogs or to play on lead. I do want them to see me as the most fun thing out and they do.

p.s. am answering for any genuinely interested people out there!

[Purpley]

It would be similar to introducing a tug as a motivator. You need to make them really really want it, that way they are more focused. So they only get the tug on your terms and other times it is put away.

My understanding from what I got from attending Steve's seminar thingy, was that you need to build up the want, and need to do the training with your dog. If you dog has been out and about all day doing other stuff, then they are less likely to be completely focused on the building up of drive.

Corvus - if you are this interested in drive training, why don't you do Steve's distance course, or attend a seminar as you seem to have quite a blurred vision on the right way to do this. From my understanding, if you commence drive training and have no real idea on how to go about it, you can do more bad than good.

[MonElite]

Separating the dog from the outside stimuli while building drive is not a new concept, when you think of the police dogs - this is exactly how they are trained - they spend days in kennels, and are being taken out only for training.

For an owner that potentially wants to train in drive and lets say compete with his/hers dog that could do with more drive, it might be the way to go, but I personally dont see a need for it if the dog is VERY drivey.

If the dog genetically has plenty of drive then there is no real reason to build it up right?

[Steve K9Pro]

C: I recently heard that while building drive in dogs initially you should isolate them. As in, don't take them for walks, even.

K9: Yes I am sure you have heard that, but are you talking about MY TID programs or ALL TID programs. In mine yes the dog has other activities restricted for a short period of time whilst drive is being developed.

I don't really get why you would do that.

K9: Well that doesnt surprise me, there are many things you dont get or dont want to get.

I'm pretty confident my dogs would both be climbing the walls if they were isolated in their yard/house for just a week.

K9: But of course like most things that you try & portray as no good, you havent tried it, so your speaking from a place of theory.

Perhaps they would climb the walls or perhaps they would be climbing into the game.

I went out of my way to get Erik playing tug in all sorts of places quite early on. I can't really imagine how that would possibly cause problems later on.

K9: In the Images of drive thread, you were asking what drive is & could not identify what a dog in drive looked like so perhaps before telling us how you dont think problems would be caused, you may try & gain a little more experience first.

[Quickasyoucan]

Separating the dog from the outside stimuli while building drive is not a new concept, when you think of the police dogs - this is exactly how they are trained - they spend days in kennels, and are being taken out only for training.

For an owner that potentially wants to train in drive and lets say compete with his/hers dog that could do with more drive, it might be the way to go, but I personally dont see a need for it if the dog is VERY drivey.

If the dog genetically has plenty of drive then there is no real reason to build it up right?

I actually can see how it can still be good. Say you have a dog that is drivey but chooses to satisfy this drive in a way that you don't want.

I can see how separating even a very drivey dog from outside stimuli can help with focus in drive training, ie you would be building drive and focus on you for a particular object rather than something else. No point if even your driviest dog is wasting it on, say, chasing rabbits.

[corvus]

When you are doing drive exercises 3+ times a day and the dog is putting in maximum effort you dont want them exerting energy somewhere else as well, or you wont get maximum results, so as much as its about you becoming their world (which you are anyway as you control the walks) its about preserving energy as well so they can give it their all

Its hardly depriving them when they are spending so much time training with you, in such a highly rewarding way

Okay, this is what bothers me. I'm not saying it's not true, just asking for more information.

Firstly, all my training is highly rewarding. That's why Erik gets hysterical when I'm training Kivi, I guess. Secondly, Erik at least does put in maximum effort, and we still walk him (because otherwise I would have to train him nearly constantly to keep him busy!) and yet, somehow, he still comes in with maximum effort afterwards. Kivi is steady in his training effort regardless of whether he's skidded in from a wild game with some of his dog friends at the park or whether he's got up from a nap to train. There's just no effect. I would buy this otherwise, but them's the facts.

Furthermore, we all know that there's more to getting out of the yard than just expending energy. My dogs come back from a walk more stimulated than when they left. In fact, if I thought I needed a boost in energy for training, I'd take them for a turn around the block on leash first. Just enough exercise and mental stimulation to get everything up and going without making them remotely tired.

Ississ: My understanding from what I got from attending Steve's seminar thingy, was that you need to build up the want, and need to do the training with your dog. If you dog has been out and about all day doing other stuff, then they are less likely to be completely focused on the building up of drive.

So... you are deliberately making life without you boring so they will find life with you even more exciting than usual? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put an evil spin on this to somehow make everyone agree with me (as if they ever would!), but offering an alternate view. I'm not trying to convince anyone. It's a bouncing board thingy. You paint your rosy picture, I paint my gloomy one and we bounce back until we find the truth of it.

BC4ME: Because PRACTISE MAKES PERMANENT

Are you agreeing with Huski or disagreeing? How do you go about getting perfect behaviours if you don't practice them when they aren't perfect? My point was why should I only practice them at home until they are perfect and then generalise them?

QUOTE (huski @ 10th Feb 2010 - 08:28 AM)

Are you looking for an argument, Corvus, or are you using this thread to bait someone? Feels like the latter to me

I was thinking the same thing, or just that Corvus really really wants to find a way to get everyone to agree that Steve's drive training is "bad"

Geez, you guys are too smart for me. What can I say, it's been boring around here lately with not enough people telling me I'm mad/stupid/inexperienced/setting my dogs up for dangerous failure/clueless about training/have failed to notice that dogs are dogs and not any other animal. I just can't get enough of it. For all my reward-based training obsession I guess I must be a glutton for punishment.

For the record, my interest in drive training is the same as my interest in any other method. Just wanna know what people actually do. I know crap all about what K9 Force does or doesn't do, but I'm genuinely interested to know how many people isolate their dogs during drive building. How long does it normally take, anyway?

[Steve K9Pro]

C: I guess I've never paid much attention to time before distance before distraction. I've taught new behaviours from scratch in the dog park or out walking.

K9: It makes it easier on the dog to gain reward by setting an environment that doesnt distract the dog (from reward). So by teaching in a distraction free environment, it makes for less stress on the dog, you know, I do this so I dont ruin soft dogs...

C: Occasionally they give me a blank look and I figure we need some more practice at home

K9: What happens then? they arent given the reward I guess. I am sure that works (for you) but I find setting the dog up to win a much fairer system. Especially on soft, easy ruined dogs.

H: Are you looking for an argument, Corvus, or are you using this thread to bait someone? Feels like the latter to me

K9: Oh Huski I am sure that isnt the case, unless the PM function on this board has been deleted I am sure Corvus has nothing against me. I have never met her, worked with her dog nor has she seen any of my methods or know anything about what i do, why would she want to argue with me? Would not make any sense.

SM: I was thinking the same thing, or just that Corvus really really wants to find a way to get everyone to agree that Steve's drive training is "bad"

K9: Well Eddy & Molly must be suffering pretty bad then lol...

H: it would hardly be the first time.

K9: Well PMs have to be good for something I guess.

I: Corvus - if you are this interested in drive training, why don't you do Steve's distance course, or attend a seminar as you seem to have quite a blurred vision on the right way to do this.

K9: lol I cant see that happening.

M: Separating the dog from the outside stimuli while building drive is not a new concept, when you think of the police dogs - this is exactly how they are trained - they spend days in kennels, and are being taken out only for training.

K9: correct, but I think this one was being aimed a little closer than Police departments etc.

M: For an owner that potentially wants to train in drive and lets say compete with his/hers dog that could do with more drive, it might be the way to go, but I personally dont see a need for it if the dog is VERY drivey.

If the dog genetically has plenty of drive then there is no real reason to build it up right?

K9: The first section of my program is to "develop drive", for some dogs that is to build drive yes, for some dogs its to build drive for a certain object, other times its to overcome past training that may hinder drive work now, sometimes it is to allow the handler & dog to learn the steps together.

It causes no issues but often cures many regardless of the level of drive the dog starts with.

Edited February 10, 2010 by K9 Force

[Steve K9Pro]

C: Firstly, all my training is highly rewarding. That's why Erik gets hysterical when I'm training Kivi, I guess. Secondly, Erik at least does put in maximum effort, and we still walk him (because otherwise I would have to train him nearly constantly to keep him busy!) and yet, somehow, he still comes in with maximum effort afterwards.

K9: How do you measure maximum effort? Does he have a guage?

Kivi is steady in his training effort regardless of whether he's skidded in from a wild game with some of his dog friends at the park or whether he's got up from a nap to train. There's just no effect. I would buy this otherwise, but them's the facts.

K9: with two dogs...

Furthermore, we all know that there's more to getting out of the yard than just expending energy. My dogs come back from a walk more stimulated than when they left. In fact, if I thought I needed a boost in energy for training, I'd take them for a turn around the block on leash first. Just enough exercise and mental stimulation to get everything up and going without making them remotely tired.

K9: so if you had a competition or working dog, you would have to take them around the block before a competition or job to get them stimulated? Hmm that may not be what everyone thinks is the best idea.

The issues arent often about being physically tired either, did anyone say that?

C: I know crap all about what K9 Force does or doesn't do,

K9: For once, I agree with you totally, maybe thats the message you should be spreading.

but I'm genuinely interested to know how many people isolate their dogs during drive building. How long does it normally take, anyway?

K9: How long is a piece of string. It takes as long as it takes.

Edited February 10, 2010 by K9 Force

[Pete.the.dog]

K9 while you're around, can i ask a quick naive question about building drive - does it have to be with the same toy or tug each time?

Pete seems just as happy to play with anything I decide to use, e.g. head on a rope or a teddy bear..

Does it add confusion, or not make a difference?

Thanks