Bubitty Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) Hi Folks Just curious so I thought I'd start a discussion! I only have two dogs so its not really a "multiple" dog household per say. Anyways, lately I have been observing my two dogs and trying to work out which one is higher ranked. I have Bubby who is 4 yrs old and Bitty who is 9 months old. Bitty is a small dog, looks very much like a puppy and Bubby could theoretically thump her if he wanted to take stuff off her or send her a msg. Thing is Bubby is very zen. Lets her have her way and has never ever told her off. I have been watching them play lots. Bitty is a banshee and bounces all over him. I notice that Bubby is always rolling over on his back when he plays with her. When she was a much younger puppy, he would stop playing with her and walk away if she got too rowdy, shed start howling/crying and then hed walk back to her, lie down and let her resume jumping all over him. They can share a big bone (I only let them eat the same bone when I am in the same room as them) and are very casual as far as food is concerned. They line up very politely for their food and treats. They both like to claim the sleeping spot in front of my bedroom and its a case of first in first served. If Bubby gets the spot Bitty goes somewhere else but if Bubby leaves the spot, Bitty dashes for it, vice versa. So I guess my question is, can you have a situation where there is not higher dog? Or are there subtle things I am not seeing? Edited February 7, 2010 by Bub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 you can have it where there is not a major difference between the dogs ... happy go lucky, none of them care what the others have etc depends on breed, age, genetics and how the dog was raised. If you do, consider yourself a very lucky person That said, a dog is a dog. There is some form of ranking and respect there but for yours obviously it is subtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 I'd say if neither dog wants a resource too badly its possible. But if there is competition, there will be a winner and a loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubitty Posted February 7, 2010 Author Share Posted February 7, 2010 Hmm that makes sense. So basically I have not hit a point where either dog has found anything worth vying for? I always leave Bitty home with a giant bone. I come home in the afternoon, let Bubby out into the yard with her. Bitty finds her old trotter/bone and carries it around, throws it in the air. Bubby looks interested in it but doesn’t do anything and goes to ask to be let inside again. Does this mean he doesn’t want the trotter enough? I guess what confuses me is that Bubby ADORES bones and trotters and gets mega excited when I give them to him. What you are saying makes total sense but I cant imagine him not wanting the bone that she is parading around. Can I assume that despite me observing that he LOVES bones, he doesn’t love them *that* much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 There was not really an obvious 'alpha' at my place when I had three. It depended on circumstance and context. Noah and Ebony are fairly equal - she will be submissive to him, but he will too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) Can I assume that despite me observing that he LOVES bones, he doesn’t love them *that* much? not necessarily. My 4 dogs share bedding, affection, toys & eat (including bones) in close proximity. They all want & love these things, but there is never a challenge for them. Why? b/c I don't allow it! They know that if they challenge another dog for something, they have to deal with me. We often have an extra dog here for varying periods of time. I sometimes need to reset some boundaries for them each time an extra dog arrives but they seem to settle very quickly. Edited February 7, 2010 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubitty Posted February 7, 2010 Author Share Posted February 7, 2010 Vickie I do see your point. So they could both be behaving because they don’t want to get into “trouble” with Momma (hehehe Me)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochmad Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 The only time our dogs have a scrap is when a beef hide is in the picture. Everything else is shared, beds, dinner, etc. The only time they get a beef hide now, is with close supervision. Jindi might be top dog, but you wouldn't know it, she's quite good natured and only gets fiesty if it's something she can't gobble down quickly. Even chicken wings are eaten side by side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttaburra Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Zen! luv it. The puppy is still in the puppy grace period. So the next six months will see if there is a pack order developing between them. But, being a male and a female, it is likey Bub will defer to her on most occasions, any smart bloke knows "to keep her sweet" in the hope of her favours being bestowed upon him. (even if they are desexed). And since they are a fairly laid back, easy going breed, there is a good likliehood that relationships will remain harmonious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin-Genie Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 I can't tell who is alpha either. Genie usually takes away any toy Odin is playing with (in a playful manner) and Odin let's her do that. However, when we are in the dog park, Genie follows Odin everywhere. They never try to take food from each other or try to dominate each other in an obvious way. If I had to pick one I would probably say Odin is the dominant one who doesn't wish to dominate (if that makes sense). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 (edited) A good leader is also the one who is usually calm but assertive, not one who is unnecessarily and inappropriately bossy. Bub could well still be the 'top dog' of the two, but enjoys the interactions of your other, so there's no need to fight, grump, etc. I do believe there is always an 'order' of sorts - but when it's a great relationship, this 'order' can be so subtle as to not to be overly noticeable. Think of two people (although I don't usually like directly correlating people to dogs). They can be the best of friends. Congenial. Like mucking around with each other, perhaps doing a bit of a play fight now and again; sharing company etc. etc. But then something happens where an important and urgent decision needs to be made. You'll often find that one becomes the more dominant at that time. Yet chances are, when that 'moment of decision making' is over, the two friends go back to their interactions without consciously being aware that one over-stands the other - because in so many other things, they probably don't. This is just an example. Not necessarily a good one. But it might help that you can understand that one dog being the more dominant to the other doesn't mean he/she has to rule over everything all of the time nor that it has to be an overt act. Edited February 8, 2010 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 (edited) Let's not forget that a pack order exists among most social animals for a reason. A stable pack lessens conflict. No pack order could equal a general free for all if competition is likely. No pack benefits from that. My 'alpha' dog doesn't fuss over much but all dogs know when they've pushed it too far. That goes for visitors too. Bub didn't you say that Bub leads their night hunts in the back yard? Edited February 8, 2010 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akayla Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Its my understanding that males and females have a seperate order so usually you wont see alot of the issues involved with keeping same sex dogs. Second the females tend to seem to be the "boss" BUT only over particular things - the males having a slightly different value on items. Thus there is an alpha female, alpha male ect as an effective pair. It would be no good to have the two Alphas competeing for supreme Also as others have said an Alpha doesnt neccisarily mean fighting - they 90% of the time simply use body language. I had an intresting discussion once with an Ethologist about the second down who is often prone to be more violent in chastising others. This animal rarely makes it to the number 1 position. "wannabe" alphas we called them There is also the theory that they are born with the position. So an Alpha is born to be an Alpha, the omega is born to that position too - so with that theory yes it would be possible to won two dogs born to the same position given that pets are rarely from the same litter. But I would say untill you added a same sex dog (which I wouldnt recommend :laugh) its hard to tell the exact position your dogs hold because at the moment they can both be in the Alpha role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 The dogs will know their 'rank', even if you don't. Bitches are 'usually' the ones who have the last word I do not believe it is possible to have them see each other as all equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubitty Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 Bub didn't you say that Bub leads their night hunts in the back yard? Yup! He hear's the rats and nudges her to follow him! I didnt think that was an indication though! I figure he just wanted to rat hunt with a buddy! I think its the little things that make me wonder. Like yesterday I dropped passionfruit icing on the floor. They both ran over and then stopped and no one would lick the icing. So I was like "One of you clean it up please.". Nothing happened for a few seconds and then Bitty moved in to lick the icing. Bubby just sat in front of me, giving me a huge smile so I have him a cookie for being a gentleman! Then they both trotted off after Bitty was done licking all the icing. I always thought one of them would muscle in and nab the icing before the other! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 (edited) Bub didn't you say that Bub leads their night hunts in the back yard? Yup! He hear's the rats and nudges her to follow him! I didnt think that was an indication though! I figure he just wanted to rat hunt with a buddy! I think its the little things that make me wonder. Like yesterday I dropped passionfruit icing on the floor. They both ran over and then stopped and no one would lick the icing. So I was like "One of you clean it up please.". Nothing happened for a few seconds and then Bitty moved in to lick the icing. Bubby just sat in front of me, giving me a huge smile so I have him a cookie for being a gentleman! Then they both trotted off after Bitty was done licking all the icing. I always thought one of them would muscle in and nab the icing before the other! Tonight, drop a nice piece of cooked meat on the floor and see what happens. :p Edited February 8, 2010 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Didn't you do some food refusal work with Bub? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubitty Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 Tonight, drop a nice piece of cooked meat on the floor and see what happens. Oh we do that heaps! We scatter meat for them sometimes in the yard as a treat and they have to use their noses to find it. I always thought icing was more valued in my house which is why the icing incident surprised me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubitty Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 (edited) Didn't you do some food refusal work with Bub? Yup with Bitty, not ye old Bubby though! I guess ultimately it doesnt matter who is ranked higher I am just really curious so hoping you guys can give me some tips to watch out for signs. Purely to satisfy my curiosity! Edited February 8, 2010 by Bub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Bubby just sat in front of me, giving me a huge smile so I have him a cookie for being a gentleman! Sorry to disappoint Bubby KNOWS THE TRICKS! he has been well rewarded by sitting, he knows darn well what you're cooking, and he knows when you are likely to feed him treats !!! Nothing gentlemanly about it, sorry---- he just was waiting for something better than a dollop of icing on the floor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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