Drive Question - Food Or Prey

[ness]

I have yet again been pondering this question so thought I would open it for discussion since there are plenty of people who have some knowledge on drive training and probably more knowledge then I do.

The question is this - my logic tells me my youngster is more prey driven. She is a mad ball/frisbee chaser and tugger and will take a toy over food under normal circumstances. For example tonight we were at the park and I had stopped off to get tea on the way. I was sitting on the grass eating my tea - my older one sitting with me hoping I might share, the younger one when offered a chip left it on the ground and then spent all of tea fetching her ball while I threw it for her. She also managed to drop the ball right on top of the few bits I had saved to go and do something with my older one after tea. Food left on the ground she ignored while fetching her ball.

For the first 16 months of her life she was never really interested in meals and would often skip meals.

However, she is also extremely people timid but in that context she will not play tug or fetch a ball, will totally shut down however will now take food.

My thought would be whatever was stronger "drive" would be the last to go and whatever was the lesser drive would be the first to go.

So I guess my question is has anybody else observed a similar situation and more importantly does anybody have any explanation as to why this might be the case.

Edited February 7, 2010 by ness

[corvus]

My thought would be whatever was stronger "drive" would be the last to go and whatever was the lesser drive would be the first to go.

Ah, not necessarily.

Here's how I understand it... From an evolutionary perspective, it doesn't make sense to be thinking about food or hunting (or playing) when you think you are in danger. Any drive to do those things will vanish, and that is the way it should be.

Consider this... Say you're an anxious dog that gets a real kick out of chasing a toy. This is a behaviour that requires a good deal of focus, so to engage in it, it makes sense that you would need to be relaxed enough in your surroundings to not have to worry much about what is happening away from the ball or whatever. You're going to be running after that ball, or leaping after that tug and while you are doing that you won't be paying much attention to anything else. Vigilance goes out the window. Would you want to throw vigilance out the window when you're anxious about something that is nearby at this very moment?

Food, however, doesn't take all that focus. You can pop a dog a treat in the presence of a scary thing and they only have to take their eyes off it for a second. Maybe even not at all, although if they are being that vigilant there's a good chance they are so stressed the idea of eating is actually distasteful.

[ness]

I didn't mention in my original post but she would also refuse treats in situations where she was anxious. The taking treats is only a new thing.

[Nekhbet]

you can train a dog to exhibit high drive in specific situations. Sounds like her anxiety of new people is something that shuts down prey drive, but she has enough food drive left to take a nibble. OF course that too could be a conditioned response, just to take treat. I would take the fact anxiety shuts down her prey drive as a bad thing and start behavioral based training.

SHe is maturing now as well remember. She is not a baby anymore. Behaviors will change, some new ones will crop up. It is left a while but you should start working more on her anxiety issues in general, and I see she has a reasonable amount of obedience which helps a lot.

[The Spotted Devil]

Hi Ness - just interested as to what has triggered this anxiety around people in your opinion?

[ness]

Nekhbet - she is now 22 months so has been starting to take treats in the presence of people for around 6 months, not reliably though. Sometimes she still says nope can't take treats. I guess I just haven't forced the issue with her and have continued on our merry way training what she can when she can but as I said to somebody last night I guess I am trying to work out if I should be manipulating her food drive so she is more foodie and using that more in training and not bothering with prey drive. Was just curious as to whether anybody else had had a similar issue with the dogs obviously preferred drive being totally supressed.

And I haven't not been working on her anxiety issues either.

[ness]

TSD - pretty sure there is a large genetic component with her - no real specific trigger its not a recent problem. She is getting better most of the time I just wondered if maybe I had my training idea all wrong and that maybe I should be using more food in training instead of toys.

Lets just clarify a few more things - its not a case of won't play when away from home. She will tug/fetch when at new places and in fact its the first thing she does when I let her out of the car. Switch on to me waiting for something to do. She will play outside a ring at training. She will even play inside a ring. The problem seems to be when you start adding a judge or stewards acting as figure 8 posts. Even people she has met every week since she was a youngster cause problems for her.

[Seita]

I agree with Nekhbet, the taking of treats may be a conditioned response rather than her food drive showing through. I think from what you've explained, she is more prey driven than food, but her threshold for strange people is so low that regardless of how high her prey drive is or how into her game she is the fear of people boots her straight out of it.

I'd be curious to see what her body language says when she is taking treats in the presence of strangers?

[ness]

I guess what I am trying to say is that if taking food is in effect a conditioned response though but at least she is taking it could you then build food drive to the point where its useable versus having a dog who is prey driven but refuses to interact with a toy when she is anxious.

Her body language when she is taking treats off strangers is get me out of here. She will often take a treat and then go off rather than stick around for another one. Although there are some people she will continue to hang around after being given a treat. We are only at this point now though. She use to not even acknowledge the treat because it was to scary to approach a strange person. Over the course of the summer while being down the beach she has come to approach more readily and will occasionally of her own accord make a hesitant approach towards a stranger and has a few times tried the working dog trick of chasing after a jogger although comes immediately when called. Previously she wouldn't have had enough courage to even have tried this as it would have involved leaving me to go and approach somebody scarey.

[JulesP]

I reckon prey & food are the same drives anyhow. Dogs that seem more food driven are just either lacking imagination or not as easily fooled :D I.e. staffy in prey drive - "I eatz the tug, I killz the tug" BC - "I know damn well that tug isn't food! Do you think I am silly? Provide food human!"

The end result of chasing prey is food.

[ness]

;) JulesP yes Ness would fit the screw the tug provide dah food category. Kenz er nope :D .

[corvus]

I agree with Nekhbet, the taking of treats may be a conditioned response rather than her food drive showing through.

I don't think it's a conditioned response to take food. It doesn't make sense on two levels. Firstly, if it was a conditioned response it shouldn't matter whether it's food or not. Just holding something out towards the mouth should do it. Like those carp you see in ponds that rush to the surface and eat woodchips some obnoxious child (corvus) has thrown into the water to see if they are dumb enough to eat it. They spit it right out again, but the point is you can throw any handful of small objects in and the pattern of the splashes produces the "eat it up" response. It doesn't work if you throw something large in. I tried it. :D You could argue that the smell of the food prompts a dog to eat it, except that the way appetite works isn't that simple. As I mentioned before, if a situation is stressful enough digestion shuts down completely and your body actually makes you feel nauseous if food it around. It happens in humans and it happens in other animals as well.

Secondly, if taking food is a conditioned response, why isn't chasing a ball? Bet she does both of them plenty.

And thirdly (I thought of another one), it's maladaptive to eat when you're very stressed out, but the stress response is linear and closely correlated with how stressful the situation is. Thus, if stress levels go down a little, appetite will stop being so suppressed. Not that dogs only eat when they're hungry, but just that they don't eat when their digestive systems have shut down, most likely because the smell of food is not remotely appetising at that point.

[Vickie]

TSD - pretty sure there is a large genetic component with her - no real specific trigger its not a recent problem. She is getting better most of the time I just wondered if maybe I had my training idea all wrong and that maybe I should be using more food in training instead of toys.

Why do you think it's genetic? Have you observed the same from other dogs with the same breeding?

My first response when people talk about a dog's behaviour being different in public is to examine the handlers feelings in public/when being observed. I don't mean to be so blunt, but is there a possibility that you are uncomfortable playing with her in public & she is picking up on this?

Do you make sure that people (strangers) don't make eye contact with her? I would be doing lots of getting people to walk past, deliver food without looking at her & keep walking. Will she play with any of your friends at all? I would also be testing whther she will play with your friends that she knows well in the company of strangers.

It sounds like she has plenty of drive from everything you have ever said about her, I'm sure you will be able to work though it :D . I would definitely stick with the toys/play. I think dogs can reach a stage where they are so used to switching on for "the game" that they can learn to do this despite their surroundings.

[Seita]

I agree with Nekhbet, the taking of treats may be a conditioned response rather than her food drive showing through.

I don't think it's a conditioned response to take food. It doesn't make sense on two levels. Firstly, if it was a conditioned response it shouldn't matter whether it's food or not. Just holding something out towards the mouth should do it. Like those carp you see in ponds that rush to the surface and eat woodchips some obnoxious child (corvus) has thrown into the water to see if they are dumb enough to eat it. They spit it right out again, but the point is you can throw any handful of small objects in and the pattern of the splashes produces the "eat it up" response. It doesn't work if you throw something large in. I tried it. :D You could argue that the smell of the food prompts a dog to eat it, except that the way appetite works isn't that simple. As I mentioned before, if a situation is stressful enough digestion shuts down completely and your body actually makes you feel nauseous if food it around. It happens in humans and it happens in other animals as well.

And sorry what do fish have to do with dog training?

Secondly, if taking food is a conditioned response, why isn't chasing a ball? Bet she does both of them plenty.

Read OPs responses, dog does chase ball/tug near people, just not right next to them. Also when dog takes food in presence of people she clears out and doesn't want to come back for more, perhaps the dog knows if she takes food then her handler won't put her under any more pressure so she takes the food to appease the handler? Hence my thinking it might be conditioned.

And thirdly (I thought of another one), it's maladaptive to eat when you're very stressed out, but the stress response is linear and closely correlated with how stressful the situation is. Thus, if stress levels go down a little, appetite will stop being so suppressed. Not that dogs only eat when they're hungry, but just that they don't eat when their digestive systems have shut down, most likely because the smell of food is not remotely appetising at that point.

sorry I think you're confusing dogs with people, we eat when we're stressed... dogs more often than not don't eat if they are stressed.

[ness]

V wrote: Why do you think it's genetic? Have you observed the same from other dogs with the same breeding?

I have been told it probably is. I have witnessed similar behavior in her litter sister but not to the same degree. Kenzie is the worst of them but the rest are also a lot lower key. None of them seem to have her same desire to fetch and are more likely to want to lay around looking pretty. Her half-sister also has similar characteristics again not as extreme though.

V wrote: My first response when people talk about a dog's behaviour being different in public is to examine the handlers feelings in public/when being observed.

You saw her in Sydney at the comp - well the worst of it but I think you also saw that by the time we got to the freestyle she was much better. Having said that we can be at a park and happily fetching and somebody walks through and she spots them and shuts off. I have changed nothing. She will also happily play at agility training and in a variety of situations the real limiting factor is having a person within her comfort zone. This comfort zone varies - sometimes its less than the width of a footpath. The issue is made worth when she has to walk past a person - i.e. figure 8 in obedience or a stand for exam.

V wrote: Will she play with any of your friends at all? I would also be testing whether she will play with your friends that she knows well in the company of strangers.

She will not play with my brother who has since moved away from home but who lived here for the first 12-14 months of her life. He could never get her to tug. She won't tug if my parents are around either I discovered one night. She has worked obedience for one friend (Rivsky) on here but she has only ever worked her with food and she met her 2 days after she arrived. The rest if she will approach she just grovels to.

If forced to interact she does get over it eventually.

S wrote: perhaps the dog knows if she takes food then her handler won't put her under any more pressure so she takes the food to appease the handler.

She is never put under pressure to take food from somebody else. Mostly the context is my older one has approached and sat for a treat so the youngster takes her lead and will do the same to the same person. More reluctant though.

[corvus]

And sorry what do fish have to do with dog training?

You were the one that was talking about conditioning. Didn't you know that's universal?

Read OPs responses, dog does chase ball/tug near people, just not right next to them. Also when dog takes food in presence of people she clears out and doesn't want to come back for more, perhaps the dog knows if she takes food then her handler won't put her under any more pressure so she takes the food to appease the handler? Hence my thinking it might be conditioned.

Then why wouldn't she also play with a ball to alleviate the pressure? That was the point I was making. I'm sure we all know it's not that simple.

You're assuming that the handler is putting pressure on the dog in the first place, and assuming that the handler stops putting pressure on when the dog takes the food. Have you ever fed a frightened dog? They'll inch forwards and lean in from as far away as possible, take the treat and beat a hasty retreat. They naturally want to put space between themselves and the scary thing now that they no longer have a reason to be near it. They may or may not come back for more later. Depends on how stressful it was. And that kind of thing changes quite readily even from moment to moment. Guess what? Birds do the same thing! Imagine that, two unrelated species behaving in the same way in the presence of a stressor and a motivator.

I'm not saying there is never a handler effect, just that there doesn't have to be. The simplest explanation is always the place to start.

sorry I think you're confusing dogs with people

Not again! You'd think I'd know the difference after being a human for 27 years. And a zoology degree on top of that!

Have you never been so stressed you feel nauseous? It does happen, and is a scientifically proven fact. It was actually proven with rats. The body releases a particular hormone during stress that suppresses appetite. The eating more thing comes in because at the same time as the appetite-suppressing hormone, the body releases a slower-acting appetite stimulant. The idea being, at the onset and during a stressful event, you don't want to eat, but afterwards you want to eat because during the stress response your body mobilised a heap of your energy stores with the expectation that they would have been used in some physical emergency, and prompts you to replace it all. It's kinda complicated, but that's the overly simple, abridged version.

Long story short, no, I have actually not confused dogs with humans. Stress responses do vary between species, but the bones of it is all the same.

[Seita]

S wrote: perhaps the dog knows if she takes food then her handler won't put her under any more pressure so she takes the food to appease the handler.

She is never put under pressure to take food from somebody else. Mostly the context is my older one has approached and sat for a treat so the youngster takes her lead and will do the same to the same person. More reluctant though.

Sorry to clarify, I wasn't suggesting taking food from someone else. I meant for her to take food from you in the presence of a stranger, perhaps she has learnt that by doing that you won't ask her to go near the scary person again so she takes the food and clears out.

**Disclaimer** this is just a thought as I have not personally seen the dog.

[ness]

Ah ok Seita - gotcha. I knew I had also referred to her taking treats off strangers so wasn't sure if you meant that bit. I would say there is a condition response. Sometimes when she takes the food I don't think she is conscious of having made the decision to eat. Towards the middle of last year we did some work of going to the local shopping centre and me getting her out of the car and standing around and just feeding her until I loaded her back in the car.

I have also been giving Vickie's comment some more thought and maybe she isn't high drive after all . I suppose drive is a relative quantity and I guess Kenz is more driven then my older one so maybe to me she seems "higher" drive and maybe she isn't really at all .

Edited February 8, 2010 by ness

[corvus]

I don't think that just because a dog's drive is easily squashed that they therefore have low drive. IMO, there are two things at play, there. There's motivation, and there's bounceback. To me, they are pretty independent, in that you can have a low drive dog with good bounceback, or a high drive dog with poor bounceback.

I think that drive is a high state of anticipation for a reward. Anticipation vanishes when you're thinking about threatening things. Taking food when it's handed to you is not likely to be associated with a high state of anticipation, because the dog has to know it's coming and be looking forward to it. So, by my way of thinking, counter-conditioning with treats has nothing to do with drive. At least until the dog is so well conditioned they have come to anticipate a reward in the presence of their stressor! Pretty much cured, then.

ETA maybe K9 Force can shed some light on this subtle interplay of drives, anxiety and conditioning?

Edited February 8, 2010 by corvus

[Vickie]

I have also been giving Vickie's comment some more thought and maybe she isn't high drive after all . I suppose drive is a relative quantity and I guess Kenz is more driven then my older one so maybe to me she seems "higher" drive and maybe she isn't really at all .

yes, but does it matter whether it is relative? Relative to what? You have always seemed very pleased with the amount of drive she has & at a young age you have taught her complex behaviours that she does with enthusiasm. I saw her perform with enthusiasm in a confined room full of strangers. I think for a young dog with issues, she is doing very well. She doesn't need a quantified level of drive to prove this.